Question for Alquedia

[SiuHung]

[

Reply]
Yes, I can see that, but why now, why not 20 years ago? or 100 years ago? Is it just that they are reaching critical mass now?

And with the escalation in attacks over seas, how long untill we see more here?

I have a theory about this. Just a theory...
I think that the escalation (and yes, this was happening on a smaller scale 20 years ago), is due to the fact that younger generations of people in the Middle East are beginning to seek change. There is more technology: TV, Cell phones, The internet available to these younger people, and they can see the West as well as the Far East. They can see how others live, and have begun to question authority. The religious leaders do not like this...It might lead to change. Change might leave in a less powerful and/or influential position...So they step up thier efforts to spread fiery message and recruit as many as possible to demonize the West. Demonize the West and isolate themselves from it by teaching hatred and spreading fear. Then the young people will either be caught up in it, or be afraid to challenge authority. Just a theory.

[SiuHung]

T

There is a segment who indeed are filled with hate, but there is a segment of western populations that is like this as well. Would you blanket the west with a statement like this because of the views and agenda of say David Duke and the KKK? Or would you be apologetic about that segment? BTW, that segment at one time numbered in more than a million.

I think David Duke, and the KKK are disgusting. I find thier views and actions repulsive. However, they at this time are not linked to worldwide terror, drug dealing, and are small potatoes compared to Al Queda and Muslim extremists. They aren't sweeping throughout the Far East, leaving a path of death and hatred in thier wake. They aren't kidnapping foreign journalists and chopping thier heads off.

[Merryprankster]

RD,

David Jamieson is entitled to his point of view, ie

it is indeed a we did this so they do that kind of thing.

But he is wrong.

The problem is not political. There is no policy we could adopt that would satisfy them. In fact, even when this POV began, in the 12th century, there was no policy the west could have adopted to satisfy it. I defy anybody to name a policy that would satisfy them, given their STATED GOAL of establishing a worldwide Islamic Caliphate. At best, you simply delay or provide time for them to try and gather strength.

The reason is that it posits the world in a Manichean way, where us="good," and them="evil"....and "good" must triumph. It is as simple and complex as that. Make no mistake about it. The AQAM has phrased this as a cultural war of survival. No matter what window dressing people try to hang on it, on either side, it reduces to that. And it becomes very easy to begin justifying all sorts of activity when you start painting an issue in such a stark either/or way (see the war in Iraq).

Lest somebody come along and try to brand me as anti-Muslim, I'm fully aware that this parsing is hardly unique to Islam, and is an oft-repeated theme in human history. But the question asked was "Why are they conducting terrorist attacks against the West?" At the end of the day, it's not because of Israel-Palestine, Old European Colonialism, or U.S. policy. It's because they have decided two things:

1. The World is divided into the Dar al Harb and the Dar al Islam - the House of War and the House of Peace - who are perpetually at war until Islam prevails.

2. They get to decide who is in the Dar al Harb and who is in Dar al Islam.

Historically, this viewpoint has existed, with a significant number of adherants, since the 12th century.

Again, I note that this is a separate, (albeit linked) issue from the conditions that allow such extremism to flourish - which IS a policy issue and has policy solutions.

RD, if you are genuinely interested in this subject, I'd start poking around for reputable history on the Internet. There are a LOT journals and what not.

[Merryprankster]

I think that the escalation (and yes, this was happening on a smaller scale 20 years ago), is due to the fact that younger generations of people in the Middle East are beginning to seek change. There is more technology: TV, Cell phones, The internet available to these younger people, and they can see the West as well as the Far East. They can see how others live, and have begun to question authority. The religious leaders do not like this...It might lead to change. Change might leave in a less powerful and/or influential position...So they step up thier efforts to spread fiery message and recruit as many as possible to demonize the West. Demonize the West and isolate themselves from it by teaching hatred and spreading fear. Then the young people will either be caught up in it, or be afraid to challenge authority. Just a theory.

Basically, this is right. There is also the element of the "Deal with the Devil," that lots of corrupt ME regimes have made with local radical clerics to stay in power - the regime lets the radicals preach their hate and blame everything on the West, rather than the corrupt regime...then it's "hello misplaced aggression."

The only problem is that these regimes still have to exist in the international world, and they have a significant segment of their own populations that would like to know why their country is doing business with infidels. It's a short jump to "Our regime is apostate for this and must fall."

Oops.

[mantis108]

I believe it is dire poverty brought on by extreme conservatism in those countries that is the source of the "Dar al Harb" that MP mentioned. Really the way that children can get fed or clothed in poor village is to go to religious schools that are rounded by extremists who disguised themselves as religious personels. In actual fact they are professsional assassins. Killing and murdering people is their trade in reality. The kids are brought up or rather brain washed to the point that human life has little to no value to them. The only meaningful thing or purpose of their lives is their loyality to each other especially that of the leader. But then DJ is right also that not all of the people there are like that. However small group(s) they are they still can pack quite a punch.

Western media love to romanticize them with labels such as fanaticism, suicide bomber, etc... These labels are there to help sell the papers not to help understand what is going on with the world.

The fact is that it is about arms trade business that went out of control. Now that the murders gang up together to form the "resistant" to fight the foreign power who are trashing through their land backed by power of armament and the hunger of oil, which are the roots of all evil in their eyes.

As long as extreme conservativism and dire poverty maintain a strong grip on these people, there will be more of these thugs around. It is the only "career" and life style that they know. The wars in Iraq and Afghanastin are the newest round of inspiration for their claim of Jihad. It is helping them to tell others in their part of the world that they are needed as professionals. BTW, OBL was/is rich or well funded for this reason as well. The west leaded by the US is only fighting fire with fire. It will only continue to consume all of us.

May be we can try demonstrate "Dar al Islam" by actually being peaceful meaning instead of shipping them armaments in exchange for oil why not ship them medicial technologies or whatever else but arms instead? For the meantime, let the media not romanticize the criminal minded assasins.

Mantis108

[David Jamieson]

So are you guys saying there is a definitive manifesto that points towards the requirement of a worldwide caliphate? I would like to see this if it's true.

I think there are extremists who are imams that are calling for this, but i think the sweeping surmizing that islam and it's faithful are about this point is dead wrong.

As much as you may think my viewpoint is wrong, I share the same sentiments towards some of the things you are saying as well.

Minimizing groups such as the kkk is a convenience of the times. It was in my own lifetime that they have been huge in number and they are still a force to be reckoned with.

As for christian groups or other terror groups, these aren't small potatoes either.
The IRA probably let off a few hundred bombs in London over the past few decades.

Tim McVeigh is an example of inner american terror groups. And what about Waco? What could that have turned into?

Not apologizing for these friggin asses who are carrying out the latest in attacks, but I really think some of you guys have a little of a distorted view on things. Cut through the chaff of politic and you are left with more politic.

anyway, this argument every time we have it is continually unchanging.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Someone was recently signing his posts with the following (he's since stopped). But the issues involved are very pertinent to this thread about Al Qaeda. This is what he was signing with:


"Jihad is part of this overall defense of Islam... Jihad means to struggle to the utmost of one's capacity... A man who exerts himself mentally or physically or spends his wealth in the cause of God is indeed engaged in Jihad... but in the language of the Divine Law,, This word is used specifically for the war that is waged solely in the name of God against those who perpetrate as enemies of Islam..."

.......................

***AND THIS is what I would like to respond with on THIS thread, concerning the whole idea of "jihad" and the inappropriateness of using such ideas to appear on the bottom of every post you make on a website like this:


In today's world,in the name of "jihad", people are being brainwashed into thinking that they will earn eternal reward in paradise if they go out and commit mass murder of men, women, and even children while in the act of suicide. But nothing could be further from the truth.

This is a perversion of one of the world's great religions: Islam.

Here is a quote from one of the greatest books ever written on the subject of religion, imo:
THE MAHATMA LETTERS TO A.P.SINNETT (published in 1923).


"The chief cause of nearly two thirds of the evils that persue humanity is organized religion, under whatever form and in whatever nation. It is the sacerdotal caste, the priesthood and the churches; it is in those illusions that man looks upon as sacred, that he has to search out the source of that multitude of evils which is the great curse of humanity and that almost overwhelms mankind.

Ignorance created Gods and cunning took advantage of the opportunity. Look at India and look at Christendom and Islam, and at Judaism. It is priestly imposture that rendered these Gods so terrible to man: it is organized religion that makes of him a selfish bigot, the fanatic that hates all mankind other than his own sect without rendering him any better or more moral for it...

Is not man ever ready to commit any kind of evil if told that his God or Gods demand the crime - voluntary victim of an illusion, the slave of his crafty ministers?

The Irish, Italian, and Slavonian peasant will starve himself and see his family starving and naked to feed and clothe his padre and pope. For two thousand years India groaned under the weight of caste, Brahmins alone feeding on the fat of the land, and today the followers of Christ and those of Muhammad are cutting each other's throats in the names of and for the greater glory of their respective myths.

Remember the sum of human misery will never be diminished until the day when the better portion of humanity destroys in the name of Truth, morality, and universal charity, the altars of their false gods."

[MonkeySlap Too]

David,
I suggest you actually read the Q'uran, and the H'adith. Then take a look at history. Islam is fairly unique in how it institutionalizes killing and enslaving the 'other' as the command of god.

Go get yourself some 'mainstream' sermons from the middle east. Hitler wasn't as scary as what these guys espoused.

The west has forgotten it's history. We are so concerned about our own sins, than we forget the rest of the world is not without sin, and maybe, just maybe there are far, far worse things than Western civilization.

[Scott R. Brown]

Let's keep in mind the only persons MANY Muslims hate more than infidels is OTHER Muslims!

The Shiite/Sunni conflict is as old as Muhammeds Death!!

Also the lying to and cheating of infidels is permitted and encouraged in the history of Islam. Therefore, any agreement Muslims make with infidels is not binding by their faith. Agreements and treaties are engaged in by extremists merely to lull the infidel into a false sense of security in order to exploit at a later date!!

[SiuHung]

As much as you may think my viewpoint is wrong, I share the same sentiments towards some of the things you are saying as well.

Well here's the beauty of it...
We may disagree about certain things on this issue. However, because of where we live, and how we live, we can discuss publically our views and not be beheaded for them I can also say that I respect your opinion, and not be afraid of retaliation or persecution.

[MonkeySlap Too]

Which is worth fighting for, isn't it David?

[Mr Punch]

I agree it's a continuum, but to say that it's not connected at all to Iraq and Afghanistan is missing the point that these wars have given a lot more people their skewed legitimacy and marginalized a lot more people. Plus giving them greater access to training and weapons.

Islam is fairly unique in how it institutionalizes killing and enslaving the 'other' as the command of god.

Funny, I've heard this story before from you. You could just as easily point to various times in Chriatian history (and some of it not so distant) where you could say the same thing. Islam is not unique in this at all.

Plus, there are many many strands of Islam who don't agree at all with this kind of action. Here's a starter detailing some of the differences between and problems facing the majority of Pakistanis.

And sure freedom is worth fighting for, which is why Bush is a hero to many everyday Afghanis. But the job isn't finished and to continue fighting the so-called War on Terror in this way is just going to make it more difficult and intensify the Hydra Effect.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Mat,

To make equal the current behavior of Islamic extremists with that of historical Christianity is not justifiable!! Christian’s have not used force to try to convert other peoples in hundreds of years, and that kind of behavior was from the Europeans, not Americans. Violent conversion has been the way of Islam from the beginning!! Also just because Christians did it does not make it ok for others to engage in the same activity! Wrong is wrong and just because someone else did it does not make it right! Some in Islam make the contention they are paying back for the crusades, but they fail to acknowledge that the Islamic “IMPERIALISTIC” empire was forged through death and destruction of other cultures!!

Islam is unique in many ways!! Their violent conversion of other peoples started with Mohammed and is justified in the Quran, while destruction of other peoples is only justified in the Old Testament and is not sanctioned in the New Testament. The white slave trade by the Islamic “EMPIRE” made the black slavery of Americans and Europeans look like a Sunday picnic!! Islamic slavery and butchery continues to this day in the Sudan!!! There they don't blow people up with bombs, they come into your village in the middle of the night and hack everyone to death to machetes!! But you are right we shouldn't stand up to this kind of behavior, because we might get hurt or accidently hurt innocents while attempting to stop it!!

Think of the Islamic Extremists as the school bully, I know you would say they are thinking America and Europe are the bullies, but we don’t slaughter innocent people indiscriminately. Yes some died in Iraq and Afghanistan, but they were always unintentional and we kill much fewer BY ACCIDENT, than Hussein and the Taliban did ON PURPOSE!!!! Also America pays reparations to our victims and we rebuild the countries we devastate in the wars we DON”T start!! We help them set up their own form of democracy!! The free world is free because of America!

So back to the bully!! If you allow the bully to be a bully he continues to bully! If you stand up to him you may get hurt, but he will learn there is a cost to his actions that he will have to pay every time he bullies! You don’t back down just because the bully goes to get some of his friends and make your life worse. You get more of your friends and you duke it out until the bully is defeated, if you don’t you will live under fear and oppression the rest of your life.

War is hell but it beats the alternative!!!

The problem is a difference in worldviews between Islam and the rest of the world. They are a problem in every part of the world including Russia and China and they have been that way since the origin of Islam. This is because Mohammed justified the spreading of their faith by the sword. No other religion has ever allowed this. Even the Old Testament didn’t!!

They are tribal minded and stuck in the 12th century. They oppress women and children and non-Muslims. They even oppress each other!! The Sunnis oppress the Shiites and the Shiites oppress the Sunni!!! They want to return to the glory of the Islamic EMPIRE and they want to force everyone in the world to be like them, die, or live under their oppression. America does not do that and we have never done this!!!

The problems in the Middle East started during WWI when the Turks allied themselves with Germany. France and Britain promised rewards for the tribal leaders that assisted them against the Turks. As a result, after WWI the Middle East was divided, not along culture and religious lines, but arbitrarily and consequently you have many historical enemies living within the same country!! This part of the world has not known freedom of thought or activity for the entire 6000 years of civilization there! Only now are some considering the benefits, but they are fighting against a 12th century mindset.

I am sure I will have more to say later, but that is all i have the time for at the moment!

[David Jamieson]

Guys, you and I are only allowed to express our opinions provided they don't counter the conventional wisdom and embarass the establishment too much.

Other wise, we may not be beheaded, but we will be jailed and we will be pepper sprayed or tazed or some other form of control will be imposed upon us, so I wouldn't go all crazy with the "I am a free man and thise guys are primitive" rants just yet.

Secondly, read the old testament for pete's sake. Speaking of definitive initiatives on killing anyone and anything that doesn't lock step with your ways. The OT is full of this kind of stuff and there are plenty of peeps that believe it and listen to it daily.

Anyway, I am saying radical extremism based on any religious posturing is likely, not a good thing for the rest of us regardless of where it is coming from.

I wouldn't say that our actions towards these states is one of the innoncent yet powerful lamb making right in the world though.

I mean, isn't it us with the standing armies on their soil? Don't we drop the bombs on them to the tune of 100,000+ civs dead?

perspective dudes.

[Merryprankster]

David,

I don't know if anybody else is saying that a worldwide caliphate is universally accepted as Islamic doctrine, but I'm certainly not.

When I say "these guys," I'm talking about AQ and their buddies. Most Muslims would very much just like to get on with their lives, just like anybody else.

Cut through the chaff of politic and you are left with more politic.

I wish this were true in AQ's case. If it were, the problem would be much much simpler.

As far as the manifesto is concerned, the NYT discovered a short one:

1. Bring the rule of Allah to earth

2. Attaining Martyrdom in the cause of Allah

3. Purging the ranks of Islam from the elements of depravity.

Rohan Gunaratna has a more indepth discussion from the AQ Charter in his book, Inside Al Qaeda. Unfortunately, I lent it out. He did say in a BBC interview with George Alagiah that the charter lists "Al Qaida as the pioneering vanguard in the fight against the enemies of Islam." He also noted in a speech before the UN the "oft repeated Al Qaeda dictum that it is 'the duty of every Muslim to wage jihad.' " I should point out, as I have before, that Gunaratna is no friend of U.S. policy.

The charter itself reads that "Islam will be spread as it always has, by tongue and teeth, by word and bullet, by pen and gun." You might also take a look at Sayyid Qutb, and the ideology of the Takfiri (a particularly virulent strain of North African Islamic extremism). Hizb ut Tahir, in Central Asia put out a rather interesting little document saying that in their vision of the world, all countries must convert to Islam and be ruled by Sharia or pay a tax. Failure to pay that tax would result in military attacks, subjugation, and forced conversion.

CAIR (Council on American Islamic Relations), has come under repeated attacks from many experts for possible support and diversion of funds to Islamic terrorist organizations, despite its supposedly moderate stance and insistance that it only promotes human rights (to me this is like claiming that Menachem Begin and his Irgun fighters were war heroes...). Omar Ahmed, the CAIR leader, reportedly stated that Islam is in the United States to become dominant, the Koran should be the only recognized authority, and Islam the only religion in the world.

While the general religious goals are probably not too different than those of the Catholic church, which I am certain would love to see the world convert to Catholicism, I think it's clear what path Islamic terrorists have chosen to try and bring about their goals.

Before anybody tries to make a stupid moral equivalency argument, I'm not claiming that this is somehow worse than the collective sins of the Catholic church's history; I'm only showing that the goal of AQAM associated movements is to bring about a worldwide caliphate, and violence against non-combatant kufir (unbelievers), and murtad or irtidad (the apostate) is an appropriate method.

This in no way excuses abuse on the part of anybody anywhere for any reason.

Of course, the terrorists consider their targets to be combatants, or the deaths to be at the very least justified, but that's a different issue.