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Thread: breaking, moving, and isolating structure

  1. #1
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    breaking, moving, and isolating structure

    I recently posted a few of my ideas on a different thread about those who mix wing chun with other stuff. I shared some of my ideas and read what others posted. The biggest thing I learned from cross training seriously in a different martial art is the wing chun structure, and how it will fail if you are a robot. You must be fluid, you must have motion, you must have a dynamic outlook of what your body can do. Dogmatic views and over obcessing about how the perfect tan sao should be in your structure limits you right there.

    This is why Chi Sao was invented. It makes wing chun a fluid living art. Lately, I have been pondering with the ideas to break my structure. Mainly in really close clench situations, or when my opponet traps me. Resetting to wing chun structure IME, is not the best idea. Instead listen to what your opponet does, and learn how to isolate and break your structure. For example, you and your opponet square up and you toss him a right vertical punch which he (we'll assume its two guys fighting) blocks it with a wu sao and then controls your arm trying to trap it down to your body. Now, you know whats coming next so you isolate your structure, but break your structure with your right arm, you give it to him, and make him comit to his movement. Now you can use that against him.

    Here is a video I am sure some of you have seen with a famous break dancer in it. This guy has infinite knowledge of energy release and structure, and watch how he breaks it down and isolates it to accomplish certain tasks.

    http://www.milkandcookies.com/links/13782/

    The part where he forward break falls and then just effortlessly pops right back up the same way he fell, is pretty impressive IMO.

    Which brings me up to my next point about wing chun structure. You don't train a tan sao to be a tan sao. You are training an idea, a concept, and building an energy. You are not training to perfect structure to fight with in the SLT, you are building attributes. You learn to apply these ideas in chi sao using the movements you know from the forms. Its not always going to be the same like in the form and a lot of people on this forum will argue with each other over centerline, application, history, harmony, whatever. However, the form is just a guideline and when your structure adjusts to the situation and if you freeze frame and and drop back to the YJKYM and SLT position you can check to see if the idea was what it should be. Of course I assume all of you know this.

    Broken structure....

    On the ground your structure is not the same, but wing chun theory can still exist. your centerline changes, your bridges change, your movements change. Same thing with long distance. You must learn to break out of your structure when the element changes. However, the theory of the structure is still there, its just when the game changes the idea changes. Which is why I love wing chun. Now, obviously some things will not transfer to other mediums and some things will be similiar at best, but somethings will just plain make sense to you. Maybe our monkey brains cannot comprehend it until we train it. Every now and then I will learn something I already knew because I was never in that situation or in that range with that technique. Or I will mess up and then think about it and realize what I should have really done, and what would have been a better decision.

    Motion is another thing I think that plays into this. In the end all you are controlling is energy in motion. Your structure is controlled by your energies, and your motions. Whoever has the better control of the energy and motion has a better chance of winning a fight. You train to toss your hip into your punches and kicks but after developing that attribute for a while you can put your whole body behind a punch with barely moving your hips.

    I also do taiji on a regular basis, yang family. I know the short form, the sword form, and practice push hands. now in tui sao (push hands) isolating is a big part of it. You relax and maintain your structure and when someone tries to control you with your own arm and they are actually doing it, you relax and isolate it from the structure and use it against them. I have been doing this for a few years now and I have been told by sifu over and over again this basic concept but only recently have I truly began to scratch the surface on it. Someone attacks me in push hands by using my arm as a lever to my spine to control my body I let them have my arm and when their motion is going one way I attack the yin side of them and use it against them. I mean you can really toss people around doing that. Of course I will admit that this type of stuff does not work that well with people my level or greater (well push hands is much like chi sao, when someone is better than you its obvious). So I go back to basics and do things there.

    I combine the structures and energies too, I use a huen sao a lot in push hands, and a fook sao as well. I even use just saos along with a huen sao to control the yin and yang sides of my opponet.

    So really IMHO, all you need is lots of hard work and to be serious and open minded about your wing chun and it can take you to levels beyond of what you know from the forms or from what a book tells you, or from what your lineage even says. Its an art thats made to be advanced by its practitioners. Dogmatic thinking about zen, lineage, history, proper application of techniques, etc is not going to get your wing chun to a real level. I respect those things, and I at one point was really into kung fu history in general and read a lot of mythical stories about lots of different lineages of different styles. Very interesting reading but a lot of it had nothing to back it up as far as proof goes.

    Oh well I am pretty tired from class tonight and I got beat up a bit so I am going off to bed, good luck to everyone in their training, and please feel free to criticize, comit, bash, congratulate, or ignore my post.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  2. #2
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    Good post Gangsterfist! It all relates to what Augustine Fong has called the "nonclassical gung fu" stage. It is also directly appropo to Wong Shun Leung's statement about WCK...."be its master not its slave."

    Keith

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    Agreed - great reflective post, GF. Thanks for sharing your observations and something of your personal journey.

    Maybe Hendrik isn't entirely blowing smoke with the awareness angle.

    Regards,
    - kj
    "It's all related." - me

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    Quote Originally Posted by kj
    Agreed - great reflective post, GF. Thanks for sharing your observations and something of your personal journey.

    Maybe Hendrik isn't entirely blowing smoke with the awareness angle.

    Regards,
    - kj

    Thats funny because a lot of times I found myself seeing eye to eye (of course only on some levels) with some of what hendrick said. OTOH, a lot of times I had little idea of what hendrick was saying lol! The only limits wing chun may have are the limits we give it.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangsterfist
    So really IMHO, all you need is lots of hard work and to be serious and open minded about your wing chun and it can take you to levels beyond of what you know from the forms or from what a book tells you, or from what your lineage even says. Its an art thats made to be advanced by its practitioners. Dogmatic thinking about zen, lineage, history, proper application of techniques, etc is not going to get your wing chun to a real level. I respect those things, and I at one point was really into kung fu history in general and read a lot of mythical stories about lots of different lineages of different styles. Very interesting reading but a lot of it had nothing to back it up as far as proof goes.
    This is key to true learning in Kung fu, but WC is a product of China so it would probably be helpful to understand the culture, history and way of thinking of the people who created and refined this art to some degree. Many kung fu masters were/are daoists or buddhists and use alot of the daoist/buddhist philosophies to create these styles. Although becomming a daoist or buddhist is not nessisarry to become proficent in kung fu, a basice understanding of these religions might prove to be useful in understanding kung fu. Just some thoughts... good post by the way.

    Airdrawndagger

  6. #6
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    Hi,

    Wing chun should be natural when fighting, therefore there is no need to mixed it with anything because it's the essence of everything, as long as you keep things simple and direct, the tools used to express the theories/principles doesn't matter. The techniques passed down from our wing chun ancestors are just a method to teach the application of the system's concepts and principles. Don't be a slave to wing chun tools, they were ment to serve you.

    Kung fu fighter

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter
    Hi,

    Wing chun should be natural when fighting, therefore there is no need to mixed it with anything because it's the essence of everything, as long as you keep things simple and direct, the tools used to express the theories/principles doesn't matter. The techniques passed down from our wing chun ancestors are just a method to teach the application of the system's concepts and principles. Don't be a slave to wing chun tools, they were ment to serve you.

    Kung fu fighter

    Amen brother!!!

    Ali Rahim.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Airdrawndagger
    This is key to true learning in Kung fu, but WC is a product of China so it would probably be helpful to understand the culture, history and way of thinking of the people who created and refined this art to some degree. Many kung fu masters were/are daoists or buddhists and use alot of the daoist/buddhist philosophies to create these styles. Although becomming a daoist or buddhist is not nessisarry to become proficent in kung fu, a basice understanding of these religions might prove to be useful in understanding kung fu. Just some thoughts... good post by the way.

    Airdrawndagger
    The only problem I have with this is that what wing chun is today is not a defensive art like taiji, etc. Wing Chun is a direct fighting art. I look at wing chun having the concept why run the whole race when you can just cross the finish line instead. If you think about it, its not really a very peaceful art. I think a lot of wing chun was perhaps developed outside the temples, and probably not by buddhists or Taoist monks. It was probably developed by fighters and criminals that wanted to win fights or had to fight all the time to survive, ie the poor. I think appreciating chinese culture and philosophy is a better way at looking at it. One of my teachers is the most untraditional guy I know. He doesn't alow anyone to call him a sifu, he doesn't allow anyone to say senior or junior, he says we are all brothers and sisters. There is no ranking in his classes, there is just hard work. There is no philosophy or religion, there is just training, and a physical work out. He has an understanding of motion and energy far greater than many martial artists I have ever met, and his students work harder than a lot of others out there. The class is from 5:30 to 9:00 and it involves a 1 hour work out of hard calestinics. I have done well over 500 push ups and over 1000 crunches in one nights work out. They produce good martial artists and there is no buddhist, taoist, or any other influence in that art.

    See, I train martial arts so I don't have to fight. I had a confrontation a few weeks ago when I went out with my little brother for his birthday. I went out to the bars with him and some guy tried to get in my face because he said I spilled his drink, and he wanted me to buy him another drink. I told him no and just ignored him, and he eventually just left. This guy was trying to pick a fight with me. Another time I got mugged at knife point by a crack head. He was all jittery and slurring words out of his mouth that went something like, "Gimme yo fcuking money white boy!" There was no dai bong sao, no lop sao, no defanging the snake, I just gave the dude my money and he ran off.

    On another note I just found out that one of my new aquaintances (well a friend now I suppose) has been training mui thai and juijitsu for several years now. He and I were talking last night actually about basic concepts of fighting arts. I am gonna go work out with him and trade of some techniques, he thought wing chun was like boxing and stayed out at people's kill zones which it doesn't. It should be fun, plus I need to get my ground fighting skills up another knotch. I will really look at wing chun theory when I go exchange with this guy and see what kind of stuff I can take from a standing point in wing chun and apply it to the ground.
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gangsterfist
    Another time I got mugged at knife point by a crack head. He was all jittery and slurring words out of his mouth that went something like, "Gimme yo fcuking money white boy!" There was no dai bong sao, no lop sao, no defanging the snake, I just gave the dude my money and he ran off.


    VERY WISE REACTION!!! GOOD JOB DUDE!!! No possesion is worth dying for!!!

  10. #10
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    Gangsterfist,

    Thats cool. To each his own. Im glad to hear that:
    1. Your teacher is giving equal respect to you and your training partners. That shows me that he is a very confident person in his abilities and works at making everyone feel they have a place at your school.
    2. That you and your training partners are training hard. I think as wc practicioners we need to demand more of ourselves physically to raise the bar mentally.

    Just in my own self discoveries, I have noticed that my mind will always excel in learning and understanding WC, but if my body cannot perform what my mind has learned then I will not progress in future development. I know for me that after I have reached a physical platau in training I will be able to perform what I know mentally to the best of my abilities, yeilding the greatest results from what the physical body has to offer in terms of combining speed, strength, and agility together with economy of motion, timing, and efficency.
    As I get older I can focus more on economy of motion, timing, and efficency because I need to compensate for the lack of physical abilities that I will inevitably lose as the years go by.
    If I never reach a physical platau then there will always remain the question of just how good could I have been.
    Perhaps this way of thinking is not for everyone but It is the way I choose to approch WC and MAs in gerneral.

    As for chinese philosophy, religion, culture, and history as I said before it is not nessisary to be a proficent kung fu fighter but it has definetly help me with my understanding of it. Its just a matter of preference to the individual. Having been to China and marrying a chinese woman I can tell you that their culture is vastly different than the western culture that many of us are accustom to and there are many things that I would not have understood had I not understood the culture better.
    Take chi(qi) as a example. Chi is almost synonymous with kung fu, but what is it? How did it come about and how can understanding chi help with my kung fu?
    Chi is common knowledge to the chinese and they have been studing it and discovering new and better ways to cultivate it for hundreds even thousands of years!
    Without getting into a long drawn out discussion about chi, you can easily link chi with the chinese philosophy, religions, culture, and history if you dig a little. So this is why I choose to study these subjects alittle deeper then most, also its interesting!
    I hope im not comming across as patronizing but I just wanted to share my POV on the subject.

    Good luck with your training!
    ADD

  11. #11
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    I hope im not comming across as patronizing but I just wanted to share my POV on the subject.
    Not at all, thanks for sharing!
    http://www.wingchunusa.com

    Sao gerk seung siu, mo jit jiu - Hands and feet defend accordingly, there are no secret or unstoppable maneuvers.
    -Yip Man

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