Internal arts and self defense against blade weapons.

[Liokault]

LOL KFO has such a big PTCC following we should have our own section.

[dz]

Chimpy, you mean the guy who whooped my a$$ and pushed with Mikael?

How is everything doing, and what's up with the weight loss? Shaping up before a competition?

[Shuul Vis]

what?

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by dz
Chimpy, you mean the guy who whooped my a$$ and pushed with Mikael?

How is everything doing, and what's up with the weight loss? Shaping up before a competition?

I didn't whoop nobody's a$$. Just pushed and pulled a bit.

Very busy here, but other than that things are fine. I'm shaping up just for the fun of it. One needs to have goals in life.

I replied to this discussion because it seemed interesting. If you like, I can talk some more.


Chimpy

P.S.: Say "Hi!" to Paul and Mikael from me.

[dz]

Please write more Or if you prefer, let's take it over e-mail.

I'll send your "Hi" to P and M next time I see them.

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by dz
Please write more Or if you prefer, let's take it over e-mail.

I'll send your "Hi" to P and M next time I see them.

Kewl. I asked because the thread is apparently very old. Hadn't noticed that before and my response might not be relevant anymore.
Anyhoo, if you haven't already, read this first.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

Agree with his points or not, Marc will give you a few things to consider. For the record, I agree with a most that he says but there are a few of his points I would like to emphasize.

First of all, there is a huge gap between training and the reality of a knife attack. Chances are, you won't see the knife until it is coming at you, or worse. If you do see it, it still won't be the same as in the school. Having somebody in front of you who is determined to kill you is not something to be taken lightly. You can't prepare for it in training.

Second, you don't have the luxury of many mistakes. Yes, some people have defended themselves against knife attacks and got away unharmed. But how many others suffered (permanent) injuries after surviving the attack? At any rate, who'd want to depend on the clumsyness of the attacker to make it out in one piece? The knife has the potential to be lethal with just one (even light) touch. As such, you cannot deal with it in the same way as unarmed combat.

Third, I love FMA and Indonesian ones. They are awesome. But they have also been misrepresented of late. They have their strong and weak points, just like any other martial art. Just because they focus on weaponwork does not mean you become invulnerable to a blade down your gut. If you look at military and Western blade training, you will see lots of very strong systems too. Systems that cover things you usually don't find in the Oriental ones.

All that said, yes, tai chi chuan has plenty of techniques/concepts that can work against a knife attack. The trick is recognizing how you need to adapt them for the specifics of the knife when compared to unarmed attacks. There's no easy answers there. Lots of skullsweat and tons more training.

To quote a wise man "I could be deadwrong too."

Chimpy

[dz]

I've always found Mr Young's stuff interesting. I will certainly look more into that - thanks!

As for the FMA - Dan did once speak quite highly about a Swede called Johan Skålberg (the president for the IKAEF - http://www.ikaef.com/english/).

Gotta go, speak to you later!

[Chimpy Nuts]

Don't get me wrong, I love South-East Asian arts. I study them and am always amazed at how rich and wonderful they are. There's also tons of excellent teachers out there. My point is that however great, these styles are, they offer no guarantees. There are none.
If anything, that is what I like least about the FMA and Indo martial arts community. I've seen too many practitioners with bad attitudes because they feel their art is superior due to the emphasis on weapons.

Chimpy

[GeneChing]

If memory serves, Aikido was developed primarily as a defense agains sword by unarmed defenders. Of the non CMA, it's fair to say the aikido is the most 'internal.' But I never really considered tai chi against knife applications. On an aside, I feel that some of the xingyi dragon applications are akin to what little I know of aikido and I imagine some of the bagua apps to be similar.

[ShaolinWood]

I would definitely trust Taiji against a knife attack. Even though anything can go wrong, the chances are still there.

one of the principals of training (what I do in Chen Style) is to block on the elbow when executing a defensive move. The levels of Push hands emphasise this and that's why you do this over and over and over...

Exersise and experience will prevail though, and there's no substitute for a little exposure to a test:Like someone stated: let your buddy try some at you, someone without martial training.

But Someone like Ren Guang Yi would most certainly not stand down to a knife attack!

[bob10]

Out of interest, has anyone seen Ren or CXW or any of the top taiji teachers teaching or practicing knife work?

[ShaolinWood]

But Ren Guang Yi's dissiple Shifu Jose Figoroa has shown some great moves.
And I've seen video tapes of Shifu Guang Yi Ren showing application.

But hands on I've experienced Shifu José's excelent precision and skill. Never in my life have I experienced such speed and controll, on that I will no doubt place my trust as excelent martial skill!

The most important point in a fight situation is super fast reflex with complete control/presision. And that only comes with time and experience and dedicated training. No 2-week-self-defense course will teach you that!

Is the techniques there? In proper taiji, yes definitely. But not all taiji schools practice martial taiji nowadays, more and more "health taiji" schools appear.

"Today, most people practice Taijiquan to maintain health or cure sickness. For the last fifty years the martial aspects of Taijiquan have been ignored, and the art is now incomplete. Most practitioners no longer understand the martial applications of Taijiquan, or even that it is a martial art." -Dr Yang Jwing Ming

Does this give a bit of background?

[bob10]

But was that knife defence work specifically or just the usual application stuff? I ask because in all my years in taiji, other than Erle Montaigue (who some would question anyway, no doubt), I never saw a teacher work specifically or in any great depth on knife defence (or gourd work come to that!)

[ShaolinWood]

My Shifu has videos of Shifu Ren doing applications on Stefan(one of his other Dissiples) I think it's for sale, Don't know where though, will try to find out for you.

Butt Shifu José definitely showed us many knife applications, although he always start of with his "run-fu" story, meaning don't do this unless you can't do run-fu at all.

Yes, many movements in the forms he especially explained as being a knife technique(one of the many) i.e:
White crane spred wings(38 San Shi Ba),
Hidden hand punch(the side step end wide ward off is very effective against knife or weapon attack)

Many movements can be successfully applied, one just need to train them and if your taiji skill is good(martial skill) you will understand the principal of movement, how to move with an apponent and how to make your apponent move like you want to.

If you reach this level (In Chen, and other styles aswell, this level is known as the 4th level of skill) (there are 5 levels of skill-well according to Chen syllabis) you will know how to apply anything, it sounds stupid, but the forms and training drills, Silk reeling etc are guides to help one understand the principals of movement, and then one can addapt to any situation. Ask any great master, they just react naturally.

The aim is to be natural. To be able to adapt. And to think clear in a fraction of a second.

[Black Jack]

I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

Again if your style does not work with the offensive aspects of blade combatives in some degree or form you really are not going to get as deep as training in close quarter knife defense as a style which revolves around that range of combat.

To say that you trust your taji or that their are as many answers in gung fu as their are in the fma's in regards to knife defense does not seem to really hold up to me as I have yet to see anybody ever post anything of depth from that perspective who just does a strict internal style without crossbreeding.

The problem with countering a knife attack is that some convential techniques would actually be the worst counter-measures against a blade. Edged weapons cut on both the thrust and on the retraction which means almost any contact between knife and body can open up a wound channel.

By working with the blade in a offensive fashion you learn about your own presentation of vulnerable points and how lightening fast and non-zombie like those movements really come in.