Internal arts and self defense against blade weapons.

[dz]

Chimpy,
I hear ya, bad attitude is conter-productive in all aspects of MA. You're truly right about the no-guarantee - not even guns can guarantee you a no-harm outcome of a physical confrontation. I'd like to see TCC as my main system, though I wouldn't mind learning from other styles as well as complement where it's suitable. Do you practise knife defense and from what system(s) do you learn? I presume Mr. Young and Mr. Orlando are a couple of your influences.

Black Jack wrote:
> I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train
> with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

Me too But then again, why would anyone want to share their good stuff for free on the internet? That's why I was surprised when someone revived this old thread.

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by Black Jack
I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

The problem with countering a knife attack is that some convential techniques would actually be the worst counter-measures against a blade.

By working with the blade in a offensive fashion you learn about your own presentation of vulnerable points and how lightening fast and non-zombie like those movements really come in.

Tai chi has both sword and sabre techniques. Plenty of ground to cover regarding edged weapons in both offense and defense.

Like I said before, you need to adapt your training and techniques to the situation at hand. A sword is not a knife and vice versa. A kerambit is not a Bowie is not a golok. You need to understand the differences and adapt accordingly. It is so in F/Indo-MAs and it is no different in tai chi. There are no superior arts. Each has strong and weak points regarding (un)armed fighting. And people are different too. But it's surprising sometimes to see the similarities between those arts on a conceptual level.


Chimpy

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by dz
I'd like to see TCC as my main system, though I wouldn't mind learning from other styles as well as complement where it's suitable. Do you practise knife defense and from what system(s) do you learn? I presume Mr. Young and Mr. Orlando are a couple of your influences.

But then again, why would anyone want to share their good stuff for free on the internet? That's why I was surprised when someone revived this old thread.

TCC is a complete system. The tools you need are there and you are very free to experiment with them. Understanding them and being able to use them adequately in different situations is an entirely different matter. That takes the training and skullsweat I mentioned before. I train in other systems because for one thing, it's my job. Also, I love to train so I do whatever I can get somebody to teach me. More below.

Dan and I talked a bit when I was in your neck of the woods. One of the things discussed was the need to look at other styles and arts if you want to keep progressing. It's not just about techniques, but about understanding how things work and how you can learn your own art better by exchanging it with people from another art.
This is not uncommon in scientific communities. When great scientists from different disciplines (medecin, physics, math, etc.) come together and tackle a problem they sometimes form what is called a "great group". Alone, each person is powerful in his own field. Together, they yield much more results by offering eachother a different view/aproach/way of thinking unknown or underemphasized in the other ones discipline. The Manhattan Project was an example of this. We all know what that produced.

Marc, Bob and a ton of others are great influences on what I do, both with weapons and without. Not really for the techniques they show but for the knowledge and understanding they teach me. Learning from them or studying another art improves my understanding of tai chi immensly.

As for showing stuff, how can I show a technique on an online forum?
Seriously, try this: Combine 7 star step and the defensive parts of 4 directions in as many different variations as you can imagine. Then, see how you can use all that against a thrusting knife attack to your abdomen. But only add arm movements at the end. Experiment with footwork and body evasion first. The arms come last. Pay particular attention to weight distribution; it's the key to make it work.
You might be surprised at how interesting it can get.

Chimpy

[dz]

Hey, thanks Chimpy - interesting points! Maybe you can show us some stuff in October? One more question, what do you think about groundfighting from a TCC (self defense, not ring fighting) point of view?

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by dz
Hey, thanks Chimpy - interesting points! Maybe you can show us some stuff in October? One more question, what do you think about groundfighting from a TCC (self defense, not ring fighting) point of view?

No prob. Have fun with it. Remind me in October and we can do some of it then.

Groundfighting for SD sucks whatever the point of view. Too many things can go wrong. I try to avoid going to the ground alltogether if I can. If I'm taken there, I try to get up ASAP. As a sport it's great and you can learn some excellent things from it, but as a primary SD strategy, I'd say it's very dangerous.

A dear friend of mine once got seriously stomped because he went to the ground on the street. Another friend routinely makes people fall to the ground when he fights. Once there, he deals out the serious pain. All the rest before that is just playing nice.

Groundwork is just another range you need to know about. It's no more difficult than standing upright and fighting long-medium-close range. Just different. For SD, it has very limited application IMO.

[dz]

> [..] but as a primary SD strategy, I'd say it's very dangerous.

Yeah, especially if we combine this with the possibility of knives.

Do you do any specific training for the "getting up ASAP" part (I would like to add "... and doing as much damage as possible on the way")?

[Black Jack]

It's not the same. To say that a system which only has elements of one study in its curriculum is the same as a system which makes a large part of those elements its basic core is something I don't agree with.

I practice fma and ima and am a fan of blade work and theory in both the south-east asian and western context.

To make it more of a direct question as it was still not answered I will ask you since you posted. How do you train for offensive based knife useage?

What basic fundamentals does your style instill in direct knive/blade training? What kind of primary and secondary vital templates or angles of attack do you use? How does it address defense rythem and movement? Elements of range? What about personal carry systems? Grip Preference? Stance? Execution of techniques? Training aids and drills? Methods of Entry/Deception? Do you use Tueller's 21 foot rule as a judgement of distance in defense?

Give specific info.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

At the risk of sounding too philosophical, Tai Chi is inundated with practical blade defenses.. Yeilding and absorbing is akin to the opponent trying to cut water, the sister art of Chin Na is applied at the maximum extension of the blade wielder's strike.. I, personally, teach knife defenses from a perspective of Tai Chi and Chin Na quite effectively for standard street application.... BUT, a well trained Indo or Filipino will usually turn you into cut-bait..

My partner teaches blades, JKD, sticks, shoot-fighting, NHB, etc.. the hard stuff.. i teach the soft stuff, Tai Chi, Chin Na, QiGong.. we cross-train and use each other and our students to evaluate the overall effectiveness of our respective arts, Blades in well trained hands should be avoided (trust me).. blades in the hands of amatures are no real problem..

Be well..

[ShaolinWood]

Yes, I would say that when you are in a situation of having to defend yourself against a knife attack you must already have done all you could to not be in that situation, meaning you are now literally defending for your life. In this situation anyone who has any martial training is already better of than someone with none, meaning your reflexes should be better and you panic less.

To come to Black Jack's question, (stating direct) I would say (I'm thinking what comes to mind):
_ When implementing defensive techniques, focus on simultanious stepping out of direction of attack (when attacker uses frontal attack) with blocking on elbow to avoid contact with knife. Grabs and Chin Na should only be attempted when you are safely out of the attackers comfort area.
_ Techniques like trapping hands and sidesteps would be the safest to "line the attacker up" for your attack or Chin Na.
_ Mostly avoid getting close while the attacker still has control of the weapon, and do not try to kick the knife out of his hands: The first reaction would be to turn the blade towards your foot because he will cover for his face with other hand.

This is just what I think, would like to hear some comments. Mostly If you are facing a skilled knife fighter, your chances are better than none. I cant really say anything for certain, haven't been in that situation

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by Black Jack
It's not the same.

To make it more of a direct question as it was still not answered I will ask you since you posted. How do you train for offensive based knife useage?

What basic fundamentals does your style instill in direct knive/blade training? What kind of primary and secondary vital templates or angles of attack do you use? How does it address defense rythem and movement? Elements of range? What about personal carry systems? Grip Preference? Stance? Execution of techniques? Training aids and drills? Methods of Entry/Deception? Do you use Tueller's 21 foot rule as a judgement of distance in defense?

Give specific info.

First of all, if you still feel it's not the same, then we'll have to agree to disagree. No point of going further. Which leads us to the second part of your post.
I gave you a specific response in a post to dz regarding seven stars and four directions training. It's just one example, though. But would answering any of your other "questions" really change your mind? Since you already stated it is not the same. Quite frankly, the tone of your post makes me feel I can't change your mind however hard I try. What would you accept as proof you being wrong?

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by TaiChiBob
I, personally, teach knife defenses from a perspective of Tai Chi and Chin Na quite effectively for standard street application.... BUT, a well trained Indo or Filipino will usually turn you into cut-bait..

Blades in well trained hands should be avoided (trust me).. blades in the hands of amatures are no real problem..

I couldn't agree more with your first point. But that's hardly surprising. I/FMAs are designed to work against skilled opponents or as Col. Applegate said "They're for duelling". They have traps within traps within traps. If you study them, you are training to deal with someone who is a skilled fighter. And that is a losing proposition, especially with knives. An unarmed trained fighter against an armed (knife) trained fighter is easy: the former dies. The knife is too much of an advantage. But take a well trained US Marine with combat experience, give him a knife and you're just as dead.

As for amateurs not being a problem, I couldn't disagree more. The biggest advantage the amateur has is his unpredicatbility. He usually comes from angles that are so unorthodox that it surprises you. And he can end the fight with just one touch because the knife will do all the work for him. He can hit and miss plenty of times. You can't miss once. There are no guarantees in a fight.

Chimpy

[Muppet]

The best (and simplest) test I heard of is the marker test.

Get a nice, soft-tipped permanent marker and a partner and see how many times you or your partner gets marked (stabbed).

In the hands of amateurs, slashes generally aren't as much of a concern anyway, but I have a feeling that most people who've trained for disarms are in for a bit of a surprise.

Hmm, but what's a basic effective knife stance? At least against someone unarmed?

My thought is some variant of a boxing stance, keeping the left hand leading with the right hand holding the knife.
This way, when moving in for the kill, the left arm can jam or slap away any pesky attempts at disarms.

But I'd be a complete beginner with a knife, so I'm only making a guess.

[Black Jack]

My point of questioning those kind of blanket statements is to see where you come up with those assumptions and how.

To be honest since this is the third time I have asked you to explain to me your systems specific approach to knife combatives and how that it is the same or just as indepth as an art who revolves around the use of bladed weapons I really don't expect much now and could care less.

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by dz
> cDo you do any specific training for the "getting up ASAP" part (I would like to add "... and doing as much damage as possible on the way")?

Try this here for more info:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com...floor_fighting
It has some good material for what you're looking for. IIRC, Mande Muda silat has a couple interesting concepts regarding going to the ground and getting up again.

In a nutshell, stop fighting it when you know you're about to go to the ground. Once it's inevitable, try to land on top of the dude and bounce off him as you hit the ground. There is a big difference in fighting somebody who wants to stay there and duke it out and somebody who want to run away as fast as he can. Ever tried to catch a cat?


Chimpy

[Chimpy Nuts]

Originally posted by Black Jack
My point of questioning those kind of blanket statements is to see where you come up with those assumptions and how.

To be honest since this is the third time I have asked you to explain to me your systems specific approach to knife combatives and how that it is the same or just as indepth as an art who revolves around the use of bladed weapons I really don't expect much now and could care less.

Fine by me. Just one final question: If it is so much below standard, then why do you train tai chi and its edged weapons?

Chimpy