Lowering standards

[X-Warrior]

Did you guys also experience that as time has passed, a lot of schools began to lower their standards? I see a lot of students just don't need to practice as much as we had to, nowadays you can do your required pushups for your test with your knees touching the ground and the like. Where did 'quality' went? Why are people no longer interested training very hard - with all respect due to those who still do. I read an interview of a praying mantis master who refuse to teach in Hong Kong as he said, 'Because people are not really interested there in practicing anymore, they are more interested in enjoying life'.

I also had a close friend who had to close his school because he was teaching the way he learned his art and by the time he realized this was too hard for people today and began lowering his standars, he just finally had to close his school. People dropped out, he didn't have enough students and couldn't pay his lease. He threw parties, gave extra break during class ... etc. but it was just too late (shall I mention for us, instead of throwing parties, WE were thrown out if we didn't practice. ).

Did you guys also notice this trend? I wonder why this is the way of today and why is it heading this way to the future.

-X-

[Pakmei]

Hi There,
I've seen this many a time in various schools of martial arts.

I feel that people today aren't really interested in learning an authentic / traditional based martial arts (whether it be Chinese / Japanese / Thai / Korean, etc) and prefer to opt for the what I call Bull S*%t styles, because they can't or aren't prepared to put in the hard yards.

I myself, much prefer to train the harder way.... yeah sure it bloody hurts during the class and maybe the day after, but I know that I'm improving on something I never had before. There are no short cuts in learning an authentic system, everything must be practiced in a methodical way, slowly building up and refining the exercises, movements, techniques, etc as the student improves and begins to explore within the system.

However, it's also quite hard for the instructor. Especially if he / she see's that the students aren't really putting the effort into the training - it would make them think Why should he / she bother teaching!

There is a martial arts class before mine, that I sometime watch through the door window.... all I see is the students sitting on the floor listening to the 'instructor' waffle on about this n that.... then they get up train again for about 10mins then the instructor needs to waffle on about something else.... it's complete and utter nonsense. But hey! as the old saying goes: "A fool and his money are soon parted".

Personally when I'm taking the class in my school, I practice the alongside the students with all the exercises Chy Sau, Kiu Sau, Saam Sing, Foundational Training, Basics, Basic Body Conditioning (Press-ups, Sit-ups, etc) for pretty much 2 hours solid apart from breaking away at times to correct students that are having difficulty - with only a few 20 - 30 seconds break for a gulp of water. Then this way, in my eyes, the student see's me putting in the effort and potentiallly helps to inspire and motivate them to put in the hard graft.

I like to make sure that after the 2 hours of my class, everyone including myself knows that they have trained. If the students don't come back then thats their perogative, but I certainly won't lower my standards for the sake of attracting more students.

[TaichiMantis]

The answer is that many instructors have had to provide more "martial arts lite" classes to survive. This is not necessarily a bad thing because many good physical and mental health benefits can still be reached through this type of training. This also gives them the base and means to also offer the hard core classes to those they choose to take on. If you as an instructor have the means etc. to be able to pick and choose who you want to teach, good for you!

Personally, I know I could never do, or would ever have time for a traditional training regimen. I started 2 years ago at age 43. However, my time in class and concepts I've learned have greatly helped my core strength and back problems. I found out through job and life stress my mind and body had a major disconnect. My kung fu training is helping to re-establish that connection through focus balance, breathing and relaxation of the body while doing techniques. However; there are certain techniques that I probably will never be able to do well due to my deteriorating lower lumbar region. I'll just take as much as I can and be proud that I tried.

This philosphy difference has reared it's ugly head between two sons of one of our grandmaster's. One son teaches old school and only wants to deal with the hard core students, the other takes a more inclusive approach in his school.

[Go Jun Long]

Did you guys also experience that as time has passed, a lot of schools began to lower their standards? I see a lot of students just don't need to practice as much as we had to, nowadays you can do your required pushups for your test with your knees touching the ground and the like. Where did 'quality' went? Why are people no longer interested training very hard - with all respect due to those who still do. I read an interview of a praying mantis master who refuse to teach in Hong Kong as he said, 'Because people are not really interested there in practicing anymore, they are more interested in enjoying life'.

I also had a close friend who had to close his school because he was teaching the way he learned his art and by the time he realized this was too hard for people today and began lowering his standars, he just finally had to close his school. People dropped out, he didn't have enough students and couldn't pay his lease. He threw parties, gave extra break during class ... etc. but it was just too late (shall I mention for us, instead of throwing parties, WE were thrown out if we didn't practice. ).

Did you guys also notice this trend? I wonder why this is the way of today and why is it heading this way to the future.

-X-

This is why I only teach privately now. I have no overhead no real expenses, and I can pick who ever I feel deserves to be taught and reserve the right to stop teaching anytime. I feel its the only way to do it now-a-days.

[X-Warrior]

Thanks all for the feedbacks.

Pakmei: That is exactly what my observation is, people just aren't interested in learning the old ways, most importantly PUTTING IN THE PHYSICAL EFFORT that it needs to advance to higher levels. You mainly see watered down versions of the old arts in many schools, like you said in the other class students just sit, listen and only train for a few minutes. This was the exact opposite when I learned some 20 years ago. We had to train 3-3 and half ours, NON-STOP!

I also think that schools nowadays afraid to train their students hard because of injuries related complaints and lawsuits, and this especially goes for sparring. Sparring, however is the highest training that advanced the students the most, but this has became an exceptional thing in schools. Insurance companies - and I don't know if this is also true to the UK, I am in the US - also charge a LOT of money for insuring you if you run sparring in your school. Laws, regulations and the insurance companies are just killing the real arts today. People just don't want to and also can't put in the pain they need to advance to high levels.

TaichiMantis: that's great that you started training at 43. Trust me you're just discovering the same exact thing any of us did when we started to learn martial arts, even at a young age: it gives you a healthier body, more confidence, calmness, reduces stress and balances the body and mind. Don't ever give up training thinking that you're too old for this. All too often I see young kids in their 20s giving up because they need a break from it for a while, what they don't realize the reason they failed is because they think they're 20 and they can do anything, therefore they put in too much too early. The important thing is never how much you put in, but rather being able to balance out what you also get out of it, and that is not limited to any age. If one can keep the two balanced, the person can learn martial arts for the rest of his/her life, at any age. I have a student who started at 48 and she is still very enthusiastic about it; she even trains at home on her own almost every day.

GoJunLong: LOL, I am also only teaching privately for the same exact reason. I only bother with those who are really interested in learning martial arts - I have also spent all too much time with those who are just there to socialize, disrupt and hold others back from advancing. With private teaching students concentrate more, they seem to be more interested and you also have the advantage of keeping them more interested.

---
I probably should start a new thread with this but I guess this subject can still fit in here: just a couple of days ago we had two police officers stabbed by a robber. The officers responded to a call for robbery, when they arrived the suspect tried to escape from the store and stabbed the two cops.

Now, anyone here can tell me, how ONE robber armed with a knife can stab TWO 'highly trained' police officers, armed with batons and guns? Has anyone here lately seen police defense training today? I would not go into a kindergarden with the training they get.

What's wrong in here is the same thing that becomes more and more true to schools in general: cops don't train enough to be able to use their skills - and certainly not the right way. I have seen several police training, most only receive the very low basics that is NOT sufficient for defense, and the recent sad incident just supports my statement.

-X-

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

i think the basic problem is dependant upon the general level of physical laziness on the part of americans. urbanized young people are somewhat less inclined to perform "honest hard work" like people half a generation ago. so we end up with more weaklings and sissies that end up needing to defend themselves against fewer brutes whom probably have been training since they were little.

i have a 'remedial' or 'whimp's routine' outlined for every one of my beginner and intermediate forms for people who just don't have what it takes. i developed these routines to keep my own physical conditioning at a near-peak performance level. you can do forms all your life and still be able to hurt someone. but if you can stretch and do pushups, crunches and some cardio training combined with your forms you'll have better students.

pork fat is everywhere. just weam your babies off of it.

[Go Jun Long]

i think the basic problem is dependant upon the general level of physical laziness on the part of americans. urbanized young people are somewhat less inclined to perform "honest hard work" like people half a generation ago.

Just to clarify, when you say Americans are lazy, its not just Americans believe me. When in China my Sifu always says that the Chinese are lazy people and when they train they want way too much too fast and not work hard to improve on it. Just a clarification

[X-Warrior]

I also agree, it's the trend world around. That is why I mentioned the master from Hong Kong who said he refuses to teach people in Hong Kong because they are lazy.

I myself have been half a world around and read martial art websites from other countries constantly. It's mostly a generation thing, not a regional. My observation is that though in America martial arts are not as accepted or popular than say in Europe. In the US most schools I've seen have low numbers per class 10-25 vs. in Europe, especially in East Europe classes are crammed, 40-70 students/class.

It is however still a mystery to me why, but I know some of the facts are the ones I mentioned above: laws, regulations and the fear of lawsuits for injuries. In America health care is EXTREMELY expensive (shall I say a COMPLETE RIP OFF!!!). In most East European contries it's FREE!!! If you hurt, you just check in at any clinic and they treat you. Insurance companies nonexistant there, they don't dictate what you get and how many thousands of $$$ you pay for your treatment, and you also can't sue for something YOU have decided to engage in. So people don't care much about getting hurt and schools are not reliable for you legally.

It's also true that in America the general population is less active and this includes kids too. This is mainly due to the fact that everyone drives everywhere, we over eat because food is very cheap compared to other contries, so we get fat and lazy - I'm an exception to this though, I train hard just about every day .

The thing though is that standard of living is getting better all around the world and people use this as an excuse NOT to be involved in anything heavy physical. I do think there are those who do like a great challenge though but these students are just harder to come across.

[PangQuan]

Seeing things from an americans point of view, in regards to the popularity issue of martial arts, I would say that on average the reason most americans are not physically active into martial arts are categorized into several different reasons.

1) The number one reason being laziness as mentioned earlier by others. This not meaning that other countries do not have lazy people. America just happens to have a lot. The reason falls under a combination of the remaining categories, which when combined create the number one reason which is laziness.

2) The second reason is the all mighty dollar. People either feel:
a) Tuition is an amount of money that is either too much to part with because it could be spent on better things of monetarial value.
b) Tuition is simply too much for the person to afford period, due to the cost of living.

3) The third reason is time. Many of the people that can actually afford to pay for the american lifestyle where most good schools are located work full time. This constitutes anywhere from 8 - 12 hours a day. After work there are arrands to be ran, food to be made, and relaxation to be had.

4) Easily accessable contraptions of convenience, and entertainment. Cars, television, telephone, etc.

5) Fast food. Many people eat it, and its not exactly a diet that will provide you with the nutrients to physically desire physical activity.

6) Pain. Many people fear it.

To avoid to much length I will conclude.

All other countries share the same obsticals in the form of one to all of the above mentioned as well as all the other attributions that were not mentioned. But what it really all boils down to a group of things that all other categories influence.

Sacrifice, dedication, desire, and will power. These are the elements that play in the balance with others that will determine the actions of an individual in their life. But most importantly I feel these four are the major mental attributes of any successfull martial artist.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

pangquan:
i agree wth you generally on the points you raised. traditionally this is referred to as "luxury". luxury affords such things as: wondering about the universe and one's place in it (philosophy and religion); having a choice about what to do, what to eat and when to satisfy desires: it is a factor of society overlooked by those not estranged to it, or not used to breaking society down past thier own experience; it wasn't too far back that being able to chose what to eat based on heath concerns was not a factor for most of the world's population in thier daily existances: we worry about fats, protien, carbs and total calories relative to exercise whereas many people in our own country even dont have that luxury. it is luxury that affords laziness.

5) Fast food. Many people eat it, and its not exactly a diet that will provide you with the nutrients to physically desire physical activity.

6) Pain. Many people fear it.

Sacrifice, dedication, desire, and will power. These are the elements that play in the balance with others that will determine the actions of an individual in their life. But most importantly I feel these four are the major mental attributes of any successfull martial artist.

when i bicycle there's nothing i crave more than a nice 1/2lb cheeseburger worth 1300calories and a double extra large soda for another 800. if you're gonna workout you gotta have carbs. fats will do in a pinch.

i'm not trying to be difficult with this next question: do you come from a non-tcma background? you're the second person to mention 'sacrifice' in a week in relation to martial training. i just don't understand what you guys are trying to relate to. iguess it's the difference between loose informal/casual atmosphere and McDojo's. in all of my tcma experience i've never felt like i had to do something i was sacrificing some other opportunity for. and none of the tcma schools i've been to ever maintained a 'dominance' culture. -?- (I wish there were a smile that scratches it's head in bewilderment.

the aversion to pain thing is as much a symptom of the culture of affluence as it is anything else, IMO.

[YuanZhideDiZhen]

the fact that many of us are in ma as a business should remind us that the martial arts world can be looked at in terms of statistics, market share, and the 'good-enough' principle.

the market determines to a large extent what iit is going to do and how it's resources will be allocated. the market has certain ideas about what martial arts is (as opposed to 'are') and will not invest in what is not percieved as normal. thus tcma still lingers towards the fringes of martial arts society in the US.

most people will start thier kids at a McDojo because they want to have a reinforcement system of achievement to train thier kids that hard work and diligence pays off. tcma does not have this. while 'certifications' are available and documentation ad nausia there is no tangible proof that something has been accomplished beyond having your art ingrained in you. also due to the larger variety of styles within tcma as opposed to either tkd or karate analagous certification is pretty near impossible. with the korean and japanese belting systems you can go from school to school and city to city mentioning your belt and strangers will have an idea about you. try, "hey, do you know this introduction?" and demonstrate it next time you introduce yourself somewhere: unless it is a *famous* introduction -like a style introduction- most wouldn't give a hoot: but someone from within your family of styles would have an understanding.

another problem is the stigmatism associated with tcma in the US given to it by TKD and Karate stylists: that it is not good for fighting (based on the rules of formalised point fighting which favour the arts that use that method). Most of the televised arts are tkd and karate based with some grappling mixed in the fighting shows. even of the members of this and other forums the majority started in either tkd or karate and have trained in both before reaching to tcma as a way of finding different forms to practice. this i believe is how Shaolin-do and other hybrids were founded.

a final factor in our inability to find dedicated students lies in the general problem of relavance: if you teach in or near a university environment you might have a student for two or three years. what exactly do you teach in that time? my sifus all taught first the best forms for fighting then the best forms for exercise and neat-o skills development. where does that leave a style? always accepting a lower standard while waiting and hoping for the holy grail of students to walk through the door. get over it: deal with reality. teach fast and aggressively. have remedial forms for those who can't keep up on the fast track. who knows? you might develop one of those students you're looking for and have the pleasure of reccommending him/her to someone else...for a sifu that is a reward in itself.