Spar Spar Spar

[lawrenceofidaho]

put someone in with similar skill sets and experience and I'd be glad to teach them a lesson or too.

Dude, I'm afraid that someone your age and size in MMA with less than half of your training time would be teaching you a lot of lessons........

Not to say that your training time has been a waste, but you would immediately see the need for some modifications and filling in some gaps.

I think you owe it to your students (who look up to you), to make sure that what you're teaching them is not just untested, theoretical BS, and that it actually works against decent practicioners of other styles (not just another inexperienced WC guy trying to mimic the moves of that style, but has no idea what he's doing.)

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Thanks for saving me the trouble of pointing this out to James.......

James,
I know you respect and trust your Sifu, but you have got to get out more.....

Wing Chun is a great martial art, but there are other great ones too that are definitely worth knowing about FIRSTHAND!

No one here is saying that Wing Chun sucks, and you should give it up (except for maybe Knifefighter), but there is a whole world out there that would probably amaze you if you took the time to actually see what it was about instead of assuming that you (or your Sifu) already have every possible answer to all things combat related, and that everyone else can only hope for "second best."

-Lawrence

Lawrence,

With all due respect you know nothing about me, or what investigations into other Martial/Fighting Arts I have or have not done, nor do you have any idea as to what my Sifu has or has not done in his Martial Arts career(your perspective would immediately change upon meeting the man), so why even try to give advice to someone you no little about. Trying to make a judgement of a individual based on what they say on a internet forum, is a poor use of intelligence IMO. In reality I respect each and every indivdual that has first of all taken up the practice of Martial Arts, regardless of what style it is. Secondly, each Martial Artist that has obtained any type of high quality skills in any of the 1000's of styles avaliable to them today is dangerous, and should never be taken lightly, so if you think I am under estimating someone because they are not WC practitioners you are hugely mistaken. So never think that just because I've been practicing WC for 17yrs and teaching for 14yrs that I have a inflated vision of my abilities in the art. I know that my natural instinct is not that of a natural fighter, I've had to work dam hard to gain the skills I possess today, and just because I'm not as active in the areas of sparring and conditioning as some others on this forum doesn't mean that I have no skills in fighting or WC. Each of us is at a stage of development, experience and skill to which no one can judge or make judgement towards. Until we all walk in each others shoes, judegements should be keep out of it.

James

[Edmund]

I'm not trying to diss boxing? I just don't agree with everything they do, is that okay??

Well I didn't raise the issue of boxing, you did - to illustrate "inefficient" movement.
I just stated the size of the movement is not the only factor in determining it's efficiency - something you don't agree with yet haven't rebutted directly with any logical argument.

Concerning short movements not being more efficient, I have to disagree with that statement. If I can generate the same or similar power level in my strikes using shorter movements or I can strike more than you in the same amount of time, I am using more efficient movements, pure physics boys...

I did not state short movements are not more efficient, I said the size of the movement isn't the only factor. The physics of someone using a longer reaching technique is pretty simple. A position where you can't reach him but he can reach you is not that hard to picture. It's fairly inefficient for you.

IMO the theory of keeping square-on in sparring all the time is going to fall short of the ideal. No doubt lots of people like that method but I think some actual sparring is going to show where that limits your reach.

[lawrenceofidaho]

So then the "shell up for cover" is the counter of all counters now. Who's to say I can't get around or prevent the cover up from happening in the first place. And who's to say I can't stay with his upper body movement and lateral footwork to continue the attack, while alternating my attack to his legs. Who's to say I can't counter there hooks and uppercuts just like he can counter my attacks???

Boxers deal with the pressure of heavy combinations each time they go into the gym. They are used to it.......

Are you used to a boxer's response when your attack doesn't drop your opponent quickly the way you hoped it would?

Also I did say in my post that the boxer would more than likely have to retreat and disengage a bit to regroup and then go from there.

James, if you read my post again, I didn't say anything about either retreating or disengaging. I was saying that most boxers will not do that, except for the handful that have cultivated a "running" (stick and move) style.

I find these reply's to post present nothing in the terms of HOW these boxers are supposedly going to apply these counters. I know there are counters to everything, but you guys never explain why, just that this is how they are going to counter, and we all are supposed to take it as gospel. Basically it comes down to apples and oranges. They have there way of doing things and we have ours. It's never about their way doesn't work or isn't at the least effective, because if it wasn't effective they wouldn't be doing it in the first place, but for every counter you can come up with from the boxers/thai/grappler's perspective I can do the same using WC. If you do not believe me, prove otherwise with logical responses and specific reasons why you think this way.

Of course there are counters to everything, but it would lend a lot more credence to what you are saying if you, yourself, had actually ever made any of these counters work, against say; an amateur boxer with a few years experience and a dozen 3-rounders in the ring, or a Muay Thai guy who's had a few fights, or a BJJ purple belt, etc.

I train with guys like this every week, and so when I hear you talk about how easy it would be to exploit their comparitively primitive, "second-best" styles with your pure, classic Wing Chun, it makes me shake my head because I know they are good and can fight a lot better than you think they can.

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Dude, I'm afraid that someone your age and size in MMA with less than half of your training time would be teaching you a lot of lessons........

Not to say that your training time has been a waste, but you would immediately see the need for some modifications and filling in some gaps.

I think you owe it to your students (who look up to you), to make sure that what you're teaching them is not just untested, theoretical BS, and that it actually works against decent practicioners of other styles (not just another inexperienced WC guy trying to mimic the moves of that style, but has no idea what he's doing.)

-Lawrence

Listen Man, let me ask you something. What are you basing this on?? I will admit that everyone can improve and become more effective, me included. If I were to train hard again there would be lots of room for improvement, but I'm not talking about me or about any indivdual, do you understand that. I never look at individuals when looking at particular systems or styles, I look exclusively at what that system or style teaches. Of course there are gifted, motivated individuals that will make whatever the learn in the MA effective, that is a given, but can other's duplicate what they can do, or is it only that individual that makes it work. What I like the most about WC is the fact that most anyone (those without physical disabilities like MS or something similiar) can use it without alteration to the technique or movements of the system. Over the years we/myself have taught young people, old people, people in wheelchairs, people with bad backs, necks, shoulders, leg, knees, etc. all without alteration or adaption because of their limitation. Can the MMA systems say the same? WC transends limitations and makes them as effective as they are capable. Never have I said that all practitioners of my WC are deadly fighters, because not all will put the required effort into obtaining skills like that, but all are capable of it, because I have witnessed it myself.

Another thing, the least of my worries is how effective of a fighter a am or am not. I have much more important things to worry/think about in life than this. I have faith in what I have learned and believe it or not I do not live in a closet, I have experience with other Martial Arist from different styles/systems since I have been teching for years and years now. And I have investigated other Martial Arts systems, over the last decade+, and although I have seen allot of great athletes performing, none of them has impressed me as much as what I have learned and who I have learned it from. IMO WC is one of the most complete Martial Arts avaliable today, contrary to popular opinion on this forum.

James

[sihing]

Boxers deal with the pressure of heavy combinations each time they go into the gym. They are used to it.......

Are you used to a boxer's response when your attack doesn't drop your opponent quickly the way you hoped it would?



James, if you read my post again, I didn't say anything about either retreating or disengaging. I was saying that most boxers will not do that, except for the handful that have cultivated a "running" (stick and move) style.



Of course there are counters to everything, but it would lend a lot more credence to what you are saying if you, yourself, had actually ever made any of these counters work, against say; an amateur boxer with a few years experience and a dozen 3-rounders in the ring, or a Muay Thai guy who's had a few fights, or a BJJ purple belt, etc.

I train with guys like this every week, and so when I hear you talk about how easy it would be to exploit their comparitively primitive, "second-best" styles with your pure, classic Wing Chun, it makes me shake my head because I know they are good and can fight a lot better than you think they can.

-Lawrence

Well then if you have no faith in what I say then ignore my posts, simple as that. I ignore Victor P's post because I have witnessed the man in action live, and we all know what I think about his skills. He spars all the time and IMO no improvement is apparent since I last saw him live in 90', this is not a personal issue, just me stating what I think. He does the same to me not based on seeing me in action, because he never has, but because of what I have said about him. Remember on a forum like this, regardless of what you have done in your life, when you post it on here it is all theory/concept/principal to the rest of us. I don't expect or care if anyone believe's what I have to say about WC. The point is to discuss things and share opinions, period.

Lawrence, it's great that you have a strong desire to explore MA outside of the WC you have learned. Not everyone feels the same nor do they have to do the same as you to achieve effectiveness in self defense or combat IMO.

James

[lawrenceofidaho]

you know nothing about me, or what investigations into other Martial/Fighting Arts I have or have not done, nor do you have any idea as to what my Sifu has or has not done in his Martial Arts career(your perspective would immediately change upon meeting the man), so why even try to give advice to someone you no little about.

Every time I have seen you post about how you would deal with this style, or that style, it becomes pretty obvious how little firsthand experience you have with grapplers, boxers, and Muay Thai stylists. If you actually trained with these guys once in a while, you would see that they don't do the inept things that you seem to always expect that they will....... -So, no, I have not read your martial arts biography, but I don't need to in order to tell that you don't work with guys in those arts.

Trying to make a judgement of a individual based on what they say on a internet forum, is a poor use of intelligence IMO.

James, the only personal "judgement" I have made of you, is that I think you are a good guy and nice person........ The fact that we often seem to be in disagreement when we interact on this forum does not mean that I can't see a person past their martial arts opinions and experience.

Each of us is at a stage of development, experience and skill to which no one can judge or make judgement towards.

There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Just be honest when you offer an opinion that it might not be a particularly informed one. -I don't care that my coaches don't have all the answers, but I would be PI$$ED at them if they confidently assured me that they knew what they were talking about, and then their naive advice caused me to get my A$$ handed to me in a fight.

-Why not say; "Well, I've never sparred with a good Thai fighter before, but I've been shown a couple of basic drills for defending and countering lead round kicks from my Sifu." That's being straight about it....... Don't make the mistake of believing that just because you got smooth at working a couple of those drills with some other WC guys from class means that you're an expert at dealing with Muay Thai and convince others that you really know quite a bit about something you've never dealt with firsthand. (No student or athelete can ever resent an instructor or coach who is upfront with them like that.)

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Well then if you have no faith in what I say then ignore my posts

I don't think it's wise to take what anyone says on faith. We have to see for ourselves what it's all about. In this case, I'm talking about making Wing Chun "your own", and not an untested, secondhand copy of someone else's.

-Lawrence

[Thaegen]

Well I agree with Sihing.

I am doing WT now for 20 months. 20 months is not much, I am a low grade, but I train around 15hours a week in it. I also believe that conditioning/pyshic is extremly important. Your technique means nothing when you are out of breath.

I also do Muay Thai, only 3 hours a week and I can say that WT can win against someone who does MT. I fought against MTs with also around 2years experience without those 12oz gloves, but with fingerfree gloves and headgear. The only rules are 2 rounds of 2 minutes. Elbows are allowed, knees etc...
And well it doesn't takes 2 minutes to end it.
You have to be agressive, close the distance so fast as possible, take the iniative and never stop going forward and attacking. It's like water, it doesn't stop either, if there is obstacle you go like water around it. If you get hit, deal with, don't stop attacking.

Someone mentioned that a boxers covers up, protect his face with both fist in front of his face, well if you do that without gloves, you are going to get a free ticket to a hospital.

I work as a police officer and WT works in violent and unpredicatable situations. I've been in a couple of fights and if you train realistic and hard. WT/WC is everything you need.

You need to fight to be good at it. You need to feel the pain of getting hit, the adrealine shots, your sight that gets smaller etc. But if you train hard and are commited to it WT/WC has everything. You DON'T need to mix it with another MA. And ofcourse you need to be willing to inflict pain.

It matters for every MA, it's the person who makes the MA good. If you don't have a fighting spirit, if you don't have the character, the physical attributes, the conditioning you will never be good in using your MA.

So for me WT is the MA. I don't need other MA to fill the gaps, because if there are gaps it's because you fail to use your MA.

I do MT because I like the workouts and the padwork. But I don't need to use punches or kicks from MT to make my WT work.

[Ultimatewingchun]

"James,
I know you respect and trust your Sifu, but you have got to get out more....." (lawrenceofidaho)


***Ha! Ha! Ha!


(And until he does - the guy will remain on my IGNORE list.)

I haven't read any of his posts on this thread, but from what people like yourself (and others) have been quoting from him - and the responses you guys have been making to his comments...

Nothing has changed.


...........now back to reality..............

[Mark Swiadas]

"My Level 12 Wing Chun Fighter would use his wand to shoot fireballs at the Level 15 Boxer."

"But the Level 20 Boxer uses his 'Gloves of Shelling +5' to defend against the Level 5 Wing Chun Fighter's Chain Punch special attack!"

Oops, sorry, I was starting to think this was a Wing Chun/D&D Roleplaying Forum, from the way some of these posts read!


I was originally going to pose a statement and a question, but the statement became far to statistically-oriented and I doubt anyone would have read it, so I dumped it. So on to the question!...

I've had my own experiences with boxers covering up, "shelling", etc. What have been the experiences of others with boxers' "shelling" when they aren't wearing gloves and the competitors are not limited to strikes with the hands?

[Spark]

Every time I have seen you post about how you would deal with this style, or that style, it becomes pretty obvious how little firsthand experience you have with grapplers, boxers, and Muay Thai stylists. If you actually trained with these guys once in a while, you would see that they don't do the inept things that you seem to always expect that they will....... -So, no, I have not read your martial arts biography, but I don't need to in order to tell that you don't work with guys in those arts.
-Lawrence

This brings up something interesting because James is from Calgary which has, if I'm not mistaken, quite a (if not) large - skilled Muay Thai community.

Is this true and do you know or are in contact with any of those guys?

[hazhardy]

dudes, the amount of time it's taken y'all to drift of the topic, coulda been spent on a useful sparring session.tut tut.
yeah, so spar,,and mix the wing chun in.
cool.
hza

[Merryprankster]

You have to be agressive, close the distance so fast as possible, take the iniative and never stop going forward and attacking.

Oh, will you please?! I would LOVE for somebody to do this to me. It makes my prefered range of operation MUCH easier to get to, and makes it MUCH easier for me to create small angles I need to get a takedown.

[sihing]

Every time I have seen you post about how you would deal with this style, or that style, it becomes pretty obvious how little firsthand experience you have with grapplers, boxers, and Muay Thai stylists. If you actually trained with these guys once in a while, you would see that they don't do the inept things that you seem to always expect that they will....... -So, no, I have not read your martial arts biography, but I don't need to in order to tell that you don't work with guys in those arts.


James, the only personal "judgement" I have made of you, is that I think you are a good guy and nice person........ The fact that we often seem to be in disagreement when we interact on this forum does not mean that I can't see a person past their martial arts opinions and experience.


There is nothing wrong with not knowing. Just be honest when you offer an opinion that it might not be a particularly informed one. -I don't care that my coaches don't have all the answers, but I would be PI$$ED at them if they confidently assured me that they knew what they were talking about, and then their naive advice caused me to get my A$$ handed to me in a fight.

-Why not say; "Well, I've never sparred with a good Thai fighter before, but I've been shown a couple of basic drills for defending and countering lead round kicks from my Sifu." That's being straight about it....... Don't make the mistake of believing that just because you got smooth at working a couple of those drills with some other WC guys from class means that you're an expert at dealing with Muay Thai and convince others that you really know quite a bit about something you've never dealt with firsthand. (No student or athelete can ever resent an instructor or coach who is upfront with them like that.)

-Lawrence

To be truthful I don't have as much experience with MT/Grapplers, or whoever else as lots posters on here have. But I do have experience with them, and in reality a kick is a kick, and punch is a punch, when you utilize a universal principal. Yes of course if I were to meet a pro MT boxer, his power would be surprising to me and may be overwhelming, but the idea behind the WC concept is to not trade blows with the guy, but to bridge the gap, get in close and finish the man off. There are many way to do this, and if you like we can start another thread to discuss it.

My point is always this, I my self may or may not have the ability to actually compete against a well trained/conditioned MT/grappler competitor, but I'm not talking about MY INDIVIDUAL ABILITIES, but what this art of Wing Chun has taught me to deal with any or all stylist. In the WC I have practiced and teach, there is an answer to everything. Now, whether or not a particular practitioner can apply this against an aggressive attack from another system is something else, but this also applies to the other stylist, can they apply what they know against us? You see if a system is built upon strength and speed attributes (physical attributes) then you have a basic flaw within it. Not everyone can apply arts like this because not everyone can use strength and speed effectively. Wing Chun is a skill attribute based Martial Art, meaning it relies on timing, distance control, positioning, perception skill, technical skill, and high understanding of the concepts behind the system to develop effectiveness in the practitioner. Yes, one has to have some sort of speed and strength behind it to put make it all work, but the average sized woman has enough natural strength and speed to make it work, and doesn't have to increase any of those physical attributes to be effective in the art. Now, please don't go on to tell me that MT or Boxing is just as skilled based as WC, because if that were so, old guys would be competing successfully with it. Yes, these arts do require skills to make it work, coordination, timing and so forth, but in essence they also require high level conditioning to make them work. WC does also to work against high level fighters, but not to the same extent as these other arts. When I tested for my Sifu level, I proved something very important to myself, that the art still works even when you are out of shape. For that test I had 2 guys, my Sihing and another instructor my same level and experience attacking me hard and randomly, with anything and everything, kicks, punches, shoots, grabs, push/pulls, knives, clubs, etc over a 15 minute period of time. I was totally burned out but was able to defend each attack successfully. Now even though these guys were my classmates, don't think there intentions were to take it easy on me. Their goal was to hit me if they could, plain and simple. I, due to some personal issues, had not practiced, stretched for about 5 or 6 months prior to the test, the only thing I was doing was working out and going to the bar. The stuff still worked, so when people say that conditioning is the be all end all of fighting I respectfully disagree.

Now I do agree with you Lawrence that I could learn lots from people that train in other MA systems. We can learn something from everyone we meet in life. And I do respect all Martial Arts, and the practitioners that practice them. But IMO WC is effective against whatever they have to offer, and can be dealt with successfully, when WC is 1)understood to a high level, 2) practiced over and over, consistently and persistently, 3) taught by someone qualified and has a high understanding of the concepts and principals behind the art.


James