Spar Spar Spar

[hazhardy]

word everyone,, just a little thought i should share..
Last Thursday, at my class, we did some sparring. ok, all is well,,, gloves are on, gum shield in, etc etc.
Sifu tells us to do the front punch/half chain punch/ jab (wing chun jab if you like).
so here i am, just trading a few air punches with these dudes (one after the other, not at the same time) and BANG. a jab gets through,,,, but not once,, about 8 times infact,,,,and that;s just one of the dudes there. What worried me was that everyone i was jabbing in the **** face, were all higher up than me in Wing Chun, with at least 1 or 2 grades above me..
so my message is this,,, if you don't already spar at your wing chun class, DO IT. because it was worrying to see how many people can do form and technique to the F and T, but can;t block series of punches or move around in a sparring fashion,, so if it is not part of your wing chun class yeat, tell your Sifu to do it a.s.a.f.p. because if you're not sparring then you're not thinking of how to use your wing chun in a fighting situation, where series or punches are thrown. One hit wonder, ''Pub Slugger'' punches, aren't the only style fights you will get in, fo' sure.
So SPAR SPAR SPAR, and do it regularly, because it is fun, and you learn faster once you get hit, and you use your wing chun skills while doing it,, so do it!
cool.
the hza

http://www.kamonwingchun.com is the club i belong to, to train wing chun,, check it out...

[curtis]

Hello

I'd agree that better training is needed, but sparing is a two edged sword, You will end cutting your own throat if you are not careful.
In sparing you know you got hit (or hit the opponent) but you don't know why. You cant learn in that environment, There is to much Stress, the level of sensitive goes way down,Egos get in the way. and adrenalin goes into overhaul!

What is needed are specialized drills to look at, understand and explore what is happening,AND WHY.

In the school or thought that Sparing trains for real life altercations,
Ide would tell you that are correct, it trains all the wrong things not to do.and that's where the learning stops.
Sparing is a great way to learn, But only in a controlled environment, and by only people who a already highly trained. Years of training, Most of the people who advocate the sparing have not put in the time it takes to learn.
Sparing to early in you training is an end to no where! Wing Chun is an conceptual system, it uses concepts and principles that no one else uses on the street. In sparing its me against you. its a game. not real. Plus what are the chances you will run into a skilled WC player on the street?
Don't play that game until you are ready, and make sure there is a sifu to stop things and explain what just went wrong, and WHY.
but that is my humble opinion.

C.A.G.
C.A.G.

[Ultimatewingchun]

Good post, hazhardy...

Thought I'd repost something I wrote on a thread some time ago that relates directly to your point:

"After a certain amount of forms, (ie.- SLT), pak sao drills, bong sao-lop sao drills, dan chi sao, and double arm chi sao has been learned - in pretty much a cooperative manner, and after a certain amount of footwork, punching and kicking has been learned...and after a certain amount of actual combat technique scenarios have been learned (ie.- I'm in a parallel position - or a cross leg position, vis-a-vis my opponent, and from a non contact position, and he throws a straight lead punch to my head, a hook to my head, a rear cross, a low punch to the body, a rear front kick to the body, a roundhouse kick toward the back of my my thigh, etc.- and my response is A,B,C,D, etc.) ...after a certain amount of this kind of thing has been learned...

then we put on all the protective gear that was described earlier - and we start doing drills with the above scenarios that result in contact being made, including light-to-moderate headshots...becoming more and more spontaneous as time goes on...while learning various ways to attack (and bridge the gap)...and with more and more intensity of contact and speed...and less cooperative...until it's pretty competitive, but with protective gear.

What I believe this does is teach people how to make contact, (both giving and receiving), including headshots and fairly hard kicks to the body and legs (including kicks to the knees) in a relatively safe manner- because of all the protective gear.

But simultaneously, as time goes on, the chi sao (without any gear of course), needs to become increasingly competitive, and with more and more contact - because wing chun requires that you experience hitting (and getting hit) with palm strikes, punches, chopping strikes, and even some finger strikes in ways that can't be done while wearing gloves or headgear.

And this is where the rubber really needs to hit the road PROPERLY; and by that I mean, relationships should now be formed between classmates (and between instructor and students) - which allows for a competitiveness that doesn't result in childish behavior. (As an example of what I mean, I have about 6 guys who have spent many years with me (7-8-10-12-15 years)...and when they spar with each other (or with me)...with the protective gear - or no gear while doing chi sao...we all recognize the fact that any one of us is capable of scoring (and scoring fairly hard) on the other guy at any given moment...so we've learned to accept that WITHOUT GETTING UPSET...and without having to immediately "get even", and so on.

I think this formula avoids a number of pitfalls and traps:

Firstly...it recognizes that longer range footwork, (ie.- starting from a non contact range - which will require bridging the gap with kicks, boxing style punches, and up-on-the-toes footwork)...is a necessity. (Too easy to fall into the belief that all you need is more and more chi sao that EVENTUALLY will start from a distance...MY THEORY IS that you need to do both types of work...RIGHT FROM THE START....close range chi sao...and longer range sparring drills (and sparring).

Secondly, it bypasses the SINK-OR-SWIM mentality that might occur when there's no protective gear, and it's just chi sao that eventually separates into a non contact starting point type of "sparring"...and you're getting punched in the mouth or in the ribs bare knuckled from early on in your training. (Which can also result in just sloppy stuff and not enough advanced wing chun technique - because there's such a big rush to learn how to kick butt and "feel good about yourself" as quickly as you can. Also probably one of the biggest reasons why some people rely way too heavily on chain punching and the like).

This also can give a false sense of security to the seniors - because they always know in the back of their mind somewhere that a REALLY HARD punch to the face, or kick to body WILL PROBABLY NEVER COME (since there's no gloves or headgear, or chest protector ever being used)...

and a FALSE SENSE OF FAILURE to the juniors who may start to think that they're just a punching bag with no ability to defend themselves.

[edward]

I'm not into sparring, I'm much to delicate.....ouch

[wongjunlam]

Hey Mate,

I knew about Kevin when I was living in Pompy. Does he still do milling?

It's vital to learn hwo to use your art when some one is randomly attacking you instead of throwing pre arranged attacks. I'm glad to see some other people taking this up. Although I wouldn't just jab and stop. Your learning wing chun, you should use wing chun, Fill the centre (theres your jab) if they dont block, keep pressing forwards while attacking. The fight should be finished in a few seconds. IF he manages to stop your initial attack (to be honest a good wing chun punch is hard to block..) don't stop, control move forward and attack...

WJL


WJL

word everyone,, just a little thought i should share..
Last Thursday, at my class, we did some sparring. ok, all is well,,, gloves are on, gum shield in, etc etc.
Sifu tells us to do the front punch/half chain punch/ jab (wing chun jab if you like).
so here i am, just trading a few air punches with these dudes (one after the other, not at the same time) and BANG. a jab gets through,,,, but not once,, about 8 times infact,,,,and that;s just one of the dudes there. What worried me was that everyone i was jabbing in the **** face, were all higher up than me in Wing Chun, with at least 1 or 2 grades above me..
so my message is this,,, if you don't already spar at your wing chun class, DO IT. because it was worrying to see how many people can do form and technique to the F and T, but can;t block series of punches or move around in a sparring fashion,, so if it is not part of your wing chun class yeat, tell your Sifu to do it a.s.a.f.p. because if you're not sparring then you're not thinking of how to use your wing chun in a fighting situation, where series or punches are thrown. One hit wonder, ''Pub Slugger'' punches, aren't the only style fights you will get in, fo' sure.
So SPAR SPAR SPAR, and do it regularly, because it is fun, and you learn faster once you get hit, and you use your wing chun skills while doing it,, so do it!
cool.
the hza

http://www.kamonwingchun.com is the club i belong to, to train wing chun,, check it out...

[wongjunlam]

I whole heartedly disagree that at a long range we as wing chun practitioners have to resort to boxing style, or up on the toes type footwork. What you need to do is to learn to use Wing Chun at these ranges. Everything you need is there in the system. You have just got to use it.

Good post, hazhardy...


Firstly...it recognizes that longer range footwork, (ie.- starting from a non contact range - which will require bridging the gap with kicks, boxing style punches, and up-on-the-toes footwork)...is a necessity. (Too easy to fall into the belief that all you need is more and more chi sao that EVENTUALLY will start from a distance...MY THEORY IS that you need to do both types of work...RIGHT FROM THE START....close range chi sao...and longer range sparring drills (and sparring).

[Ultimatewingchun]

Yeah...right.

Just use your wing chun from any range.

It's not almost exclusively an infight system.

No....................any range.

Just move in.

Right.

And the last time you sparred/fought a skilled boxer, kickboxer, or Thai boxer type was when?

[lawrenceofidaho]

I whole heartedly disagree that at a long range we as wing chun practitioners have to resort to boxing style, or up on the toes type footwork.

When some people hear "up on the toes footwork", they might be imagining someone with their heels 2-3 inches off of the floor, and bouncing up and down, but I'm sure this is not what Victor meant.

Getting power from the balls of the feet are what's important, and your heels might not even be off the ground at all.

This is an advisable skill to cultivate no matter what style that you train in (wing chun, boxing, or anything else). -All world-class fighters do this.

-Lawrence

[lawrenceofidaho]

Using sparring for what it is good for, development of certain attributes and the ability to utilize your skills in a limited way.

Timing can only really be developed by sparring. (As an attribute, timing cannot be overestimated.) -Sparring is also great for letting you know where your conditioning is at, and also learning how to take a shot or two without panicking or losing your focus.

The key is to utilze your art where it is best suited.

Agreed.
It may also be key to spend some time training in a second (or third) art so you won't be caught unprepared if you find yourself in a position where your primary art is not best suited.......

I'd much rather have in close fighting abilities than long range ones, since almost 99% of the time the fight ends up close range.

I hear grapplers saying this all the time too.......

It's great to become familiar with the other's players games, boxing/Thai footwork and such, but most of it seems like a waste of motion if you ask me.

Bigger motion, maybe, -but wasted motion? -Not necessarily........ There is always a trade-off between efficiency and power. Depends on the situation and what is going to win you the fight. (It's nice to have both in your repetoire.)

-Lawrence

[sihing]

Timing can only really be developed by sparring. (As an attribute, timing cannot be overestimated.) -Sparring is also great for letting you know where your conditioning is at, and also learning how to take a shot or two without panicking or losing your focus.


Agreed.
It may also be key to spend some time training in a second (or third) art so you won't be caught unprepared if you find yourself in a position where your primary art is not best suited.......


I hear grapplers saying this all the time too.......


Bigger motion, maybe, -but wasted motion? -Not necessarily........ There is always a trade-off between efficiency and power. Depends on the situation and what is going to win you the fight. (It's nice to have both in your repetoire.)

-Lawrence

The problem with training in other arts is the time committment, most do not have any time to do so. If the interest is there then why not, but when the purpose is to learn self defense, then why spend all the time learning all the arts. Investigation of course is necessary and if you are unfamiliar with anothers methods (meaning you have absolutely no exposure to what they are doing, like the Gracies in the early UFC's) you will be caught off guard and by surprise which works very effectively most of the time.

In practice you try to practice perfect movement in whatever you are doing, and in the end it all comes down to timing, so therefore if the movements are bigger, this translates to time and distance, meaning less efficiency. Is it easier or harder to apply timing to a larger less efficient movement? Harder. Boxing has larger movements than WC, but in perfection of the craft the movements become smaller for the more skilled, same applies to WC, the better you are at it then the smaller the movements, which means......?

James

[Edmund]

Boxing has larger movements than WC, but in perfection of the craft the movements become smaller for the more skilled, same applies to WC, the better you are at it then the smaller the movements, which means......?

Spar and find out.

If the opponent is doing "wasted motions" by your logic you should theoretically be beating them to death. Putting it into practice is the hard part.

[wongjunlam]

Yeah...right.

Just use your wing chun from any range.

It's not almost exclusively an infight system.

No....................any range.

Just move in.

Right.

And the last time you sparred/fought a skilled boxer, kickboxer, or Thai boxer type was when?

December 2003, Sanda/chinese kick boxing VS traditional Kung fu competiton held on the theatre stage of Hai Zhu District (in guangzhou). That was the last offical Competition I was in. I Won. Incase your questioning the skill of the person I fought. he has been part of the Fang Cun District police sanda team for 7 years.


The way you talk, I am curious do you even practice wing chun? if yes, you should give your art some respect.


last year doing a demonstration the local Thai boxing club in Bai Yun District stopped by and watched. afterards one wanted to see if wing chun could fight. I won that fight too using wing chun.

My Sidai, while watching a kickboxing demo, was talking to his cousin the instructor over heard and challenged him. My sidai won the fight.

We are trying to arrange another competition for the next year (needs cash). I'm quite sure I;ll have the oppotunity again to fight against thai boxing, kickboxing.. what ever.

From your profile, I see you study Willam Cheungs Wing Chun? Maybe you are just not taught to use your wing chun over a distance. (i think Phil might disagree.. but I'll let him chine in on this.) I don't KNow I do not and have not studied HK wing chun, Just Guangzhou wing chun.



I am looking to go to NY and meet some martial arts friends in the future. (not now as wife is about to give birth) When I end up that end of the world you should come along.. (probably be in about 2 years..) your more than welcome to look me up in CHina if your ever this way...

[sihing]

Spar and find out.

If the opponent is doing "wasted motions" by your logic you should theoretically be beating them to death. Putting it into practice is the hard part.

Theoretically I should be, because if I can't make it work it is my fault, not the arts.

Okay, you have movements that are larger and less efficient in application vs. shorter more efficient movments in application. Which should be easier to apply in reality? When you say it is different in application as compared to practice I totally agree, but the same applies to every movement out there, so in essence the boxer needs more time to perfect his craft than lets say us, being WC practitioners. I'm not saying that the boxers are uneffective, of course they aren't, but the ones that are real good, are putting tons of time in to make it so. The idea behind WC, at least from what I understand, is to develop effective fighting skills in a short period of time, for anyone that wish to put in the time, not just a select few.


James

[sihing]

December 2003, Sanda/chinese kick boxing VS traditional Kung fu competiton held on the theatre stage of Hai Zhu District (in guangzhou). That was the last offical Competition I was in. I Won. Incase your questioning the skill of the person I fought. he has been part of the Fang Cun District police sanda team for 7 years.


The way you talk, I am curious do you even practice wing chun? if yes, you should give your art some respect.


last year doing a demonstration the local Thai boxing club in Bai Yun District stopped by and watched. afterards one wanted to see if wing chun could fight. I won that fight too using wing chun.

My Sidai, while watching a kickboxing demo, was talking to his cousin the instructor over heard and challenged him. My sidai won the fight.

We are trying to arrange another competition for the next year (needs cash). I'm quite sure I;ll have the oppotunity again to fight against thai boxing, kickboxing.. what ever.

From your profile, I see you study Willam Cheungs Wing Chun? Maybe you are just not taught to use your wing chun over a distance. (i think Phil might disagree.. but I'll let him chine in on this.) I don't KNow I do not and have not studied HK wing chun, Just Guangzhou wing chun.



I am looking to go to NY and meet some martial arts friends in the future. (not now as wife is about to give birth) When I end up that end of the world you should come along.. (probably be in about 2 years..) your more than welcome to look me up in CHina if your ever this way...

Good post...I've had similar experience also, as well as my Sihing's and Sidia's, but on here this is never believed unless there was something learned by the practitioners to bring the WC up to a so called standard. A while back I reported that one of our long term students (who doesn't practice often and consistently, but has been around since 92') sparred the local MMA champ, and even though our student is larger than this guy by about 30lbs, he had no problems dealing with what ever the MMA guy served up. He later brought him into the school to show him a few things and I was there to witness it, samething happened there too. There are many examples out there of WC practitioners successfully using what they know, using exclusively WC. Now I'm not trying to say that WC is all that there is out there or that everyone learning WC will be awesome fighters, because we all know that in the end it comes down to the individuals abilities to use it correctly when needed.

Also, I find it funny when people claim that WC is in need of outside source material to bring it up to the MMA standard. Why is it that people try to compare a average individuals abilities (someone that has a full time job and other committments besides MA), to that of a professional athelete. Guys like Victor always come back and say "And the last time you sparred/fought a skilled boxer, kickboxer, or Thai boxer type was when?" Is he implying that if I for example spend a equal amount of time training and am just as skilled as any of these practitioners that I can't compete against them. I think this is total BS, and comes from someone that doesn't have an appreciation of the art he claims to teach.

Sometimes I think the people that believe in adding more on to their WC from outside sources are just bored and feel the need to do so, not because the need is actually there.


James

[sihing]

Sounds like you and some of your friends have sparred/fought some boxing/kick boxing/Thai boxing/san da people - but how skilled these people were - I don't know?

But I do know this much:

Firstly: William Cheung's TWC has more long range strategy than any other wing chun I've seen....but be that as it may...I still know from experience that being up-on-your-toes and using long range striking and low kicking technique with an indirect and elusive type of footwork... to get to the very close quarter wing chun PREFERRED range (regardless of what wing chun style we're talking about - for TWC still "prefers" to get very close like evry other wing chun)...

the long range stuff i just alluded to are things that TWC just scratches the surface about...(and does what it does in this regard very well)...

but having spent many years sparring frequently with guys who were/are skilled in boxing and kickboxing...I know that wing chun is limited at certain ranges (ie.- any range wherein your'e not in actual limb-to-limb contact or within one short step of being so)...and furthermore...even in very close quarters against a boxer type who holds his hands back (thereby denying the wing chun fighter his "bridge")...and throws punches from various angles while bobbing, weaving, slipping (ie.- Marciano, Frazier, Tyson)...

wing chun per se has it's problems with this (ie.- "the wing chun idea of "just coming in" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you).

Which is not to say that wing chun PRINCIPLES can't be used successfully at these ranges and against the Marciano/Tyson type puncher...because I know that those principles CAN be used quite successfully.

But by this I mean something probably very different than what you might normally perceive to be the case. Here is some detail from a posrt I made on a previous thread:

I love this, here's a absolute statement for ya, I quote "wing chun per se has it's problems with this (ie.- "the wing chun idea of "just coming in" even at this range can easily result in your opponent hooking, uppercutting, or coming over the top and down with punches you will NOT block, avoid, or redirect...ie.- they will hit you)." How can anyone with any sense say things like this. No one and I mean no one can guarantee that a boxers uppercuts, hooks, bla bla bla will absolutely hit me coming on them, LOL. What a joke this is, and you guys get on my A$$ about what I say at times. If you believe that anyone can easily hit you on the way in then I guess for YOU this is the case, since you believe it so much Victor (talk about having no faith in what one claims to teach). How about putting the attack to them on the way in using a whole bunch things we do all the time.

This is probably why you Victor are not listed on your Sifu's website anymore...


James