Wing Chun: What is it to You?

[Tom Kagan]

During a recent exchange with one of my students I grabbed his hair and yanked his head back. This put him in a very poor position and seemed, to me at least, to be effective. Yet, I somehow doubt this would be permitted in a MMA event. Does this make it any less effective and valid...................

Sorry Dave, I'm going going to have to disagree with you as strongly as I can while still trying to be respectful.

I am of the opinion that pulling someone's hair, especially in the MoKwoon with your training partners, is not at all a Ving Tsun method of self-discovery within the context of KungFu. Something like that is just all you.

How much skill does it take to pull someone's hair? What attribute do you think you were working on with this?

Could it work? Of course. But if you want to go this route, why not do it right and, instead, sneak up on him in the changing room and strangle him with a garrote? (You choked him out, right? So, what's the big deal?)


Learning the ancient "caveman takes a mate" technique of hair pulling is something nearly everyone has already learned as a toddler. Shouldn't we have more interesting things to train?

[Sihing73]

Hi Tom,

I can appreciate your response and I will reply as follows:

Grabbing someones hair and pulling it is NOT a WC technique per se. However, it can be argued that it follows the concepts of efficiency in that it requires very little skill and effort to pull it off. It also is an example of taking advantage of an opportunity which presented itself at the moment. Bottom line is that I have always stated up front that I cheat and I will do whatever it takes to win.

FWIW I do not teach to grab someones hair as a training method. The example is more to illustrate the need to be flexible and adaptable to each and every situation. I train to fight based on the opportunities presented to me and I stress the importance of recognizing such opportunities even when they are not apparent techniques.

If I were to have the choice I would rather sit out about 300-900 yards and just shoot you with a high powered rifle rather than see if I could beat you in hand to hand combat. I mean if I am going to try to hurt or kill you anyhow why not do it from a margin of safety .

WC teaches a very effective method of combat but you still need to take off the blinders and keep an open mind to things which may not fit into the rules and framework of the system. Grabbing someones hair can do this. Let me ask this, if you are in a poor position and someone is grappling you and about to choke you out and you find you can bite into their arm very deeply, would you use that to survive? The age of AIDS notwithstanding if it is do some stupid durty "caveman" trick or get choked out then I am all "caveman"

It is not the specific technique which is important in this case but the willingness to do whatever it takes to win, even if it breaks some rules along the way.

[Fajing]

I use the illustration of the alphabet to my students. While we all have the same 26 letters, some people can right great poetry or novels. Why is this when we all have the same 26 letters? Why can't all of use write great works? It is not the alphabet which gives this skill, but ones understanding of how to utilize the letters in sentences and paragraphs. Another interesting thing to consider is that many of the best writers often ignore the rules of grammer, maybe there is something to be learned here as well...............

Nice analogy!!!

[Tom Kagan]

But you didn't do it in a fight, you did it in class.

Does a 100 meter hurdler just move to the side of the lane and not jump the hurdles? Does he have the someone throw rocks at his teammates while they sprint? They could, but what would be the point?


Cheating during learning teaches nothing except how to hone your skills of becoming an @sshole. Not only is the class the wrong time and place, but exactly how many people need a lot of practice how to do this, anyway?

@ssholes in class end up alone with no one to train with. Someone learning to be a bigger @sshole will become much a better practitioner, student, and teacher, and with a much better group of people around if they dispense with this nonsense.


[BTW, the goal "on the street" as you put it, should not be to win; it should be to survive. Frankly, only a small amount, if any, of what is taught in at any given MoKwoon has a directly relation to survival. But, that's how it should be; the reason why is because survival is the most limited focus of all the reasons for studying a Martial Art.]

[Sihing73]

Hi Tom,

I think you are missing the point here; the specific technique is not the focus it is the mindset which is the focus. You have to be willing to do whatever it takes to win and you need to accept that this will sometimes require you to do things which are not considered fair.

Whatever you may think, I am not in the habit of abusing my students and they sometimes hit me. More power to them. I do not cheat to fuel my ego nor do I tell them I am the best. I do try to prepare them for the reality of combat which is that no one fights fair and you need to approach fighting from that perspective. If you limit yourself to following the rules then you will lose in a real fight.

When I teach to fight with the knife, for example, the first thing I tell my students is to expect to be cut. Accept this as a foregone conclusion and be prepared to fight on no matter what. Also, if you are unwilling to cut, maim or kill your opponent you have no business picking up a kinfe to begin with. Now, this does not mean that you have to kill someone, but you need to be able to accept that fact that you may need to take it to that level. And you need to be able, mentally and physically to do just that if the need arises.

Tom,
I can respect your posts and your viewpoint. However, please do not deem it necessary to preach to me about the street or the goals of combat there. I can assure you that I have been involved in several encounters, some as a result of my previous job, some as a result of being in an inter-racial marriage, and some perhaps because I am an "a**hole" at times . I have both won and not won but I have always survived. However, I wish to survive with as minimal injury as possible and if that requires me to cheat then I will do so without second thought. I can assure you that if I did not have some first hand experience pointing to the effectiveness of how I teach I would not pass this on to my students. As a matter of fact I have taught defensive tactics in a prison where I think the CO's may have a more pressing need for reality in combat. But, who knows maybe I and those I have taught have only been lucky and not skilled .

I think we will be forced to dissagree on some things and that is okay with me. It will not diminish any of your views in my mind. Hope the same can be said with regards to me.

[Sillywabbit]

Alot of focus is put on the person training in wing chun more than what style of wing chun I am sure this will offend many of you but check it out for yourself. Sifu Chung Kwok Chows system I find is most realistic for street self defence. I base this on my 20 years of training several different Wing Chun styles. Also the system he teaches could make a man with no natural skills a good fighter very simple and straight to the point. This is due to the evolution of Sifu Chung Kwok's system to deal with todays fighters Traditional with a modern twist which works in ring due to ground skills and in the street due to nononsence training. I have personally not had the chance to study that system but my research shows that system will help you more than the rest when it comes to fighting.

[Sihing73]

But you didn't do it in a fight, you did it in class.

Does a 100 meter hurdler just move to the side of the lane and not jump the hurdles? Does he have the someone throw rocks at his teammates while they sprint? They could, but what would be the point?

HI Tom,

Perhaps I am again missing something but following the logic you give above, if you don't do something in a fight it does not have value. In that case why train in a kwoon at all? Would'nt we be better off going to the streets and engaging in fights to hone our skills . In other words, if you did not do it in a fight then you really can't say it works

[Tom Kagan]

I don't think I've missed your point. So, let me try this another way:

Think back to all the times you been completely owned by someone during your training, but they were nice enough not to pull your hair, poke an eyeball, dislocate your shoulder, tear your chest hair out, spit at your face, slice your throat, etc.

Do you really think this group of people would not able to bring themselves to "cheat ... without a second thought" with the specifics mentioned above? Is there any doubt in your mind they would not "be able, mentally and physically to do just that if the need arises", as you put it?

I'm going to stick my neck out and say the chances are very good just about everyone anyone has ever met at that skill level didn't get up to this height of wisdom of their art by training in the fashion you describe you emphasize in your class.

So, why do you believe you need to specifically train with such an emphasis for people to work on these ancillary things, instead? What makes the people you teach any different than people they've taught? What makes where you live any different than where they've lived?

[Sihing73]

I don't think I've missed your point. So, let me try this another way:

Think back to all the times you been completely owned by someone during your training, but they were nice enough not to pull your hair, poke an eyeball, dislocate your shoulder, tear your chest hair out, spit at your face, slice your throat, etc.

Do you really think this group of people would not able to bring themselves to "cheat ... without a second thought" with the specifics mentioned above? Is there any doubt in your mind they would not "be able, mentally and physically to do just that if the need arises", as you put it?

I'm going to stick my neck out and say the chances are very good just about everyone anyone has ever met at that skill level didn't get up to this height of wisdom of their art by training in the fashion you describe you emphasize in your class.

So, why do you believe you need to specifically train with such an emphasis for people to work on these ancillary things, instead? What makes the people you teach any different than people they've taught? What makes where you live any different than where they've lived?

Tom,

You are making an assumption that my classes are a collection of illegal and non-wc related techniques. If your assumption were correct then I would agree with you in that I am not benefiting my students nor teaching Wing Chun. Again, the emphasis is the willingness to do whatever it takes to walk away. However I teach WC techniques as the core of our approach to combat.

As to your belief that people will cheat when they need to naturally I would disagree with you 100%. People have a tendency to want to fight according to rules and values which they hold important. Few people are able to or willing to fight dirty without reserve. Unless they train for that mindset. There will always be some hesitation when they apply a dirty technique even if it is subconcious. This hesitation will and can result in injury. Why do you think that womens self defense classes put students at stress and force them to apply techniques against a resisting opponent. Often the student has to learn not to hold back as most are unwilling to injur someone else even when being attacked.

Sorry Tom, but we have differing views and most likely will not agree. I am confident in my approach as I am sure you are in yours. I hope that each of us passes on what we can to our students and that they are able to benefit from our teaching irregardless. Oh, btw, I encourage my students to check out other teachers and see if I am full of crap. I encourage them to question me and my methods and not to take my word for anything. I also encourage them to make the art of WC their own and not become my clones.

[Tom Kagan]

As to your belief that people will cheat when they need to naturally I would disagree with you 100%. People have a tendency to want to fight according to rules and values which they hold important. Few people are able to or willing to fight dirty without reserve. Unless they train for that mindset. There will always be some hesitation when they apply a dirty technique even if it is subconcious.

Okay, what do you believe is lacking in their training from those who don't pull each others hair in class that would cause them to still hesitate after they've become accomplished? (Yes, "accomplished" is subjective, but I think you understand what I'm getting at.)



Even high level Brazilian Ju Jitsu practitioners don't typically train with knives. Their entire training system paradoxically removes nearly all techniques considered "dirty" from their training paradigm and progression. (Source: Mastering Jujitsu, by Renzo Gracie, 2003)

Okay, now hand a Brazilian Ju Jitsu Brown Belt a knife. Do you think he or she will hesitate? What's missing from their training that 6 days of knife work, if even that much, wouldn't fix when we specifically discuss this type of hesitation?

[NOTE: I picked the Brazilian Ju Jitsu Brown Belt for this example because its art still appears to have a decent uniformity of skill standard. Most people (arguably) will see this when/if they encounter it - no other reason.]

[sihing]

Quote by chisauking
"Give a simple pencil to someone that's creative and skillful and he can produce works of beauty. Give the same pencil to a layman and he can only scribble with it.

The same holds true for wing chun... It's a great style --- but unfortunately not many can even use 20% of its potential.

What do they do? Just like a poor tradsmen, they blame the tool and start to add bits and peices to what was once a great tool.

Ultimately, why try to convince others of its worth? After all, the true effectiveness of any fighting method is proven on the street -- and not in a ring or controlled fighting environment as many dream on this forum"

I like this example, some do not have the understand to use the pencil in the same manner as others, therefore what is written on the page varies in quality between different people. Skill with your tools folks, that's what it comes down to.

I've been reading through the post up to thus far. Very good comments and they are appreciated. Concerning the comments concerning strike variety(negativecr33p), think of it this way, every deflection you do is a strike. When I perform Bon sao for e.g. I am also performing a forearm smash and elbow strike. When I bring Bon Sao to Tan sao, that motion is a elbow strike, side palm strike. Biu Sao is can be interpreted as a side palm chop. There are many ways of looking at things in the WC system. Chain punching is a the basic follow-up weapon, because it allow a continuous flow of attacks based on the shortest distance between two points is a straight line. Initial counters can be done with many tools.

For footwork and a lack of it, this is something I have notice throughout my years in WC, mostly concerned with lineages outside of my own. In the WC I practice footwork and mobility is active, and regardless of what the opposing fighter is doing in terms of movement, we can keep up with them and we do not teach to stand in a static neutral stance. Movement is key in all aspects of the WC I teach, but I know this is not the case for other versions of WC. Basically, IMO, if you are dealing with your opponents two primary weapons (arms/hands) while defending or attacking you lack footwork. There have been many clips posted on here from lineages ranging from Gary Lam to Augustine Fong, both still showed me a lack of footwork(not to say these Master's lack skill or effectiveness, just different skills IMO) as they stood square on with the opponents weapons while in the exchange phase of combat. IMO this is not an effective strategy, but to each their own.

In the end, like others have said before me, understanding has allot to do with how you will interpret what you have learned from your WC training. Some believe that it all comes down to the individual, I say Yes & No. What you learn and what it teaches you is the FOUNDATION. If what you are learning is weak and inefficient & ineffective, then it is harder in the end to apply. If the structure is strong, and the movement is efficient and effective for a reality situation, then your chances are better. Remember, all practitioners from all the Martial Arts systems and styles still have to make it work for them, regardless of what others have already done within there respective arts (Bruce Lee, Royce, Rickson Gracie, are prime examples).

Keep the good posts coming...

James

[Spark]

How much skill does it take to pull someone's hair? What attribute do you think you were working on with this?

I guess this point is just a matter of opinion with regards to training. FWIW I've seen a well known sifu use hair pulling to incapacitate someone effectively and looked much like technique I've used in my class except we haven't used the hair pulling.

All I know is if I'm in a "real" altercation I'm really not going to give a $hit about whether or not my "wc skills" are evident. How much skill does it take to kick someone in the nuts?

If I walk away alive then who cares?

[Fajing]

All I know is if I'm in a "real" altercation I'm really not going to give a $hit about whether or not my "wc skills" are evident. How much skill does it take to kick someone in the nuts?

If I walk away alive then who cares?

EXACTLY!! THAT'S REALITY!!!

[Tom Kagan]

If I walk away alive then who cares?

When do you even approach not walking away from training alive?

If a person is pulling hair to control a training partner, I guarantee the hair puller is less skilled than someone who can control a training partner without doing so.

If you really believe a correct attitude is to say "Who cares?" to that observation, why train at all?

Why train for months/years to hit like a hammer when the simple reality is you can just carry one and hit with a hammer after two or three practice swings?



[Sheesh, I can hear it now: "What if the other guy has a hammer too?" "What if I lost my hammer?" "What if I walk into a blind alley at night with cash falling out of my pockets and I'm jumped by 27 ninjas wielding Uzi sub-machine guns?" ]

[Fajing]

When do you even approach not walking away from training alive?

SPARK may be referring to a street encounter. I hope so anyway.