You're not talking about the Dr Wong vs Hagwood challenge are you? Pretty old news by now if you are.
(PS, I got some anonymous help...)
Cha Wang
You're not talking about the Dr Wong vs Hagwood challenge are you? Pretty old news by now if you are.
(PS, I got some anonymous help...)
Last edited by Yum Cha; 08-15-2005 at 01:24 AM.
Itinerant practitioner
well that's great jake, except you cannot dictate what people should or should not do. You cannot provide any evidence that what you are saying is true at all ergo, you yourself are talking trash in that context.Originally Posted by Three Harmonies
David
Chill with the troll talk! My point was exactly that people should not **** talk and then it would not be an issue. Period.
Jake
just pointing it out. I could care less either way. I think that quite a lot of what's called martial arts these days is pure crap anyway. Who cares about people that are full of themselves want to talk crap about another guy that are full of themselves.
Last edited by David Jamieson; 08-15-2005 at 05:20 AM.
Kung Fu is good for you.
Registered User
Title of thread: Bak Mei Master Defeated
And my personal favourite...
For good measure...
Nah, it's not about styles...sorry, I didn't catch the other guys 'style', or is that not relevant?
Btw, Don't take this post too seriously. I don't actually care, but I couldn't help but have a dig.
All in fun
Last edited by srh; 08-15-2005 at 06:16 AM.
Lama Pai & Choy Lay Fut
Hey...enough Jibber-Jabber! Let's go to the clip! Can someone post this thing? I don't think anyone cares about 'what style' they do or did. Let's just see someone getting a taste of some 'humble pie."
Registered User
Yes, it is the "infamous" Hagood tape.
No Kung-Fu skills shown on the tape
(execept for the snap kick the old man laid into Hagood's
balls....good thing he had his cup on!)
Yeah, Hagood kicked an old man's ass, but he used no skill.
It was a hockey fight, nothing more.
Did you see the other fight on the tape?
Hagood's student got the crap beaten out of him
by the Bak Mei teachers student.
Lama Pai & Choy Lay Fut
I certainly don't think it's cool to challenge and old guy, but the old guy should have lived long enough to learn not to talk smack either
I would like to see the tape anyway, I don't care who gets their butts kicked (or nuts for that matter)
Anyone want to be 'super-cool' and post the clips???
Registered User
Hi Yum Cha and All,
How goes it, my friend?
Well, if it is really about tradition and the respect of tradition. The BM "master" should have kept his comments and thoughts to himself after he saw the clip which his student brought to him. He could have just politely said "ah, interesting" instead of making remarks that might let the student(s) think that he strongly disapproves of it. Now mind you, there is nothing wrong in pointing out the differences in the training approaches and explaining why one style train this and another trains that. But to said something is useless and the student went back for a refund is clear a breach of protocol IMHO.
In the old days, if someone were to open a new school, he might choose to establish himself by personally going to fight with the master of the established school. First he would have to do deliver a message RESPECTFULLY requesting a match. He would have arrived at the appointed time mostly by himself to hopefully take on the master. But usually as you have pointed out, the senior student would be going for the challenge in the master's stead. It would be in bad form to just show up and challenge someone. Even if the challenger wins, his would have a bad reputation. But then it doesn't mean that he won't have students; just that he would have a bad reputation that's all.
In this case, the challenger pretty much got angry and didn't seem to have bothered with proper ettiquette which he's entitled IMHO because he has lost all face. I am not saying that he is doing the right thing here. But I can understand his reaction to the insult.
In a way, I think the Bak Mei master was somewhat manipulated by his student(s), which I find odd personally. BTW, Who's really the "master" here - the teacher or the student? Only in America, right? C'est la vie, mon ami.
I peronsally believe in the prowess and principles of Bak Mei. But I can also see Yum Cha's point that not all Bak Mei stylists are to be expected invincible. It is good fortune to be able to train in such a rare style. The key is in the training. The rest is just a mirage.
Warm regards
Mantis108
PS the Doctor, the Doctor...
Contraria Sunt Complementa
對敵交手歌訣
凡立勢不可站定。凡交手須是要走。千着萬着﹐走為上着﹐進為高着﹐閃賺騰挪為
妙着。
CCK TCPM in Yellowknife
TJPM Forum
Unregistered User
In terms of a kung fu master, I would have to agree with the more traditional aproach to this subject.
I would not consider someone a master of any martial art until they have reached a point in thier art with which they are actually able to use it in combat.
What I mean by that is: Once one has developed an understanding of movement, and the muslce memory to be able to react with all of their tools they have been training in. To the point that at any given moment depending on their positioning and the situation they are able to react with an array of options. With out having to conciously contemplate your reaction, though at the same time being able to plan in accordance to all the variations of combat.
This is a very strict evalution with rather high standards. Personally I think the title of "master" or "expert" is to easily handed out.
A level of mastery requires such, mastery. Not a half way cultivated understanding. Are there many masters alive. No.
And even if one is a really really really good teacher, if they do not meet this criteria, then they are just a really really really good teacher, NOT a kung fu master.
A man has only one death. That death may be as weighty as Mt. Tai, or it may be as light as a goose feather. It all depends upon the way he uses it....
~Sima Qian
Master pain, or pain will master you.
~PangQuan
"Just do your practice. Who cares if someone else's practice is not traditional, or even fake? What does that have to do with you?"
~Gene "The Crotch Master" Ching
You know you want to click me!!
Registered User
Hello,
I think alot of people are interested in seeing this footage including myself, that way we can judge for ourselves.
Can someone put up the footage already.
Lama Pai & Choy Lay Fut
Yes..we want the footage! Can someone please post it up?!?
Cha Wang
Mantis,
Yes, I think both Dr Wong and R. Hagwood lost a certain amount of reputation following the event. It was rather messy. I think the facts have long been in dispute, or purposly muddied, so I have to take the "he said, she said" with a grain of salt.
Concerning the fight:
Hagwood seems to make more of it than Wong, so I suspect he has the most to be proud of. Having never seen any of the tapes, and only lived through a couple of threads like this, I can only monger the rumors I've heard, and save you all the effort of archive searching....until we get someone who actually has some video to cough up.
Here is some of the rumor and innuendo I've read:
there are multiple tapes in circulation, from both sides, with vastly different edits, the 'producer" getting his licks in on the other.
Hagwood allegedly checked himself into hospital thereafter, however for an unrelated issue.
Wong allegedly got on a plane for business the next day, bearing no marks.
Neither one shows any particular talent - it was a scrappy fight.
Wong hit him with a chi blast of tremmor power, but missed a little, so that it didn't kill Hagwood on the spot.
Hargwood beat Wong senseless and cowered Wong's students, humiliating the whole lot.
Hagwood was out to raise his reputation, so he picked one of the oldest "Masters" around and bushwacked him.
And now we can add, Wong was talking Smack, and his student's egged him on....
Now, as for "Masters". In my experience, age has more to do with the title "Master" in the Chinese culture. Master is what people call you, not what you call yourself. Every individual that one might possibly consider a master that I have met has always been called "Sifu." I have, however seen some english business cards with Master on them. Sifu, Si Gung, Di Si Gung, which of those translate into "Master?"
These guys that call themselves master, grand master, great grand master or uber-great grand master need to get their hands off it. Its like "Jumbo" shrimp. A student should be able to fight long before they learn to teach, and they will have to teach long enough to raise the ones that one day might call them Master.
Personally, I like reading about the Bruce Lee vs Jack Man battle better....it seems much more pointed.
my legs hurt
Put the f-ing footage up of the f-ing fight or what ever and thats all there is to say...who cares who won or lost, there is footage claimed to be in somebodys hands who posted the topic, so get it on a computer an post it, im wasting more time here, sheet.
Bryan Davis
Registered User
Many of the facts have already been muddied by x-warrior first post. This tape
as others have said is old news and neither person shows any true kung fu skill.
The only good beat down is Hagood`s student getting socked numerous times
and falling to the floor and at one point his head bounces off the floor(from which
he did recieve a bit of head damage afterward).
It has no merit as a kung fu vs. kung fu exchange.
Cha Wang
X-Warrior, not looking too good for your E-fu grasshopper.
Registered User
Hi All,
Just been reading the above posts. Have to say that actually I think it is most peoples’ interpretation of 'Master', which is at fault.
In the Chinese circles Masters are pretty much addressed by the title of Sifu (which we all know!). However, the word / term Sifu is made up of 2 words Lo Si meaning 'old teacher' and Fu Qin meaning Father. Because traditionally, the SiFu was like a surrogate Father for the student, mainly because the students family were too poor, so they entrusted their child under the responsibility of the respective Teacher.
So the literal translation would be teacher/father, not the common mis-interpretation that most westerners associate it to as Master! So as you can see from the literal translation, the meaning of the word takes on a whole different meaning and dynamic where by it serves to ‘instill knowledge and guide with ethics’ a third party (student) into becoming skillful at what they are doing by finding their own path.
Now all the above being said, it certainly doesn’t serve any purpose with one teacher saying something out of order about another teacher. This only leads to a loss of ‘face’ and respect especially if it was said in front of the other guys students – in which case, he would have felt as if he was backed into a corner.
But then, for the younger guy, did he need to prove anything?!…. If he knew where his level was at, was it necessary for him to fight to prove his level. This just re-affirms that old English rhythm that we used to say as kids “sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me!”.
If a person feels the need to challenge everyone because someone said something bad about them, then to me that shows a pretty bad flaw in their character as a teacher and vice versa with the other feeling compelled to say something bad about the younger guy!
Personally, I think both sides are pretty pathetic…. There are worse things happening out in the world today; to be so concerned such trivialities as one Master/Instructor/Teacher said this about that Master/Instructor/Teacher!
Dave Stevens
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