Learning Mandarin

[Matthew]

Not really. This term is not outdated and I've never found it to be taken with offense, ever. Natives still use it here all the time; customers to waitresses, various professionals to young female clients, etc..

Most Chinese I've talked (from China's most "developed" cities) disagree with that. You'd have to specify what you meant by "natives here" to a locality to have weight- as China is too diverse to generalize linguistic patterns.

My professors were from Beijing and around Beijing and suggested only using the term with the name attached.
e.g. "Miss Zhang" as in "Zhang Xiao Jie"

I also called a young girl who was a friend of a family I was with "Xiao Jie" in Shanghai and had some very interesting stares at me - and it was whispered to me that it is common reference for prosititute and is improper to use without a last-name before it- but that no one thought I meant that because I was a foreigner with beginner Chinese skills - although it could have been embarrassing had she been some professional acquaintance or business relation.

Perhaps in many of China's smaller/more rural/less developed cities (Such as Henan's DengFeng where many of those here have been in for extended time periods) and perhaps in the HongKong/South China where cultural norms vary it may be more acceptable than from Beijing/Shanghai/related major cities.

[Matthew]

For what it's worth - people have their own methods and ways of learning - and having diverse resources is always valuable.
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China Smack
http://www.chinasmack.com

Offers mainstream/"hot" articles from Chinese sources translated into English.
Pros
-You can hover the mouse over blocks of english text to see the original Chinese characters.
-There is a small glossary of commonly used internet-slang that is used in China that can help foreigners understand common abbreviations, ****phonic-slang, etc that Chinese use online/in chatting/texting/etc.
-You can see comments from Chinese "netizens" that were translated into english and get possible sentiment from Chinese themselves.
-You can read a variety of articles that give cultural insight without needing any Chinese-speaking/reading ability.

Drawbacks
-Not designed to teach you Chinese language at all, so offers no pinyin, etc.
-Articles are not too often, several per week at most (although a fair back-log).

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PeraPera Internet Browser Plugin
http://www.perapera.org/

Really useful internet browser plugin that translates/gives pinyin for Chinese characters while on any website with Chinese characters. I haven't had a chance to use this long, so there may be other pros/drawbacks I miss.

Pros
-Free
-Easy to install plugin for firefox/Chrome (Mac or Windows, maybe Linux?)
-Provides both Pinyin with tones, and definitions of the term/character(s) in English
-Faster than google translating a whole page or block of text, and way more useful.

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PPTV "Every person's TV/Video Watching service"
http://www.pptv.com

Computer application that offers all sorts of old television shows, movies, TV programming, etc etc. all in Chinese.

Pros
-Absolutely free.
-Includes many classic shows/movies that Chinese all know (e.g. Journey to the west)
-Provides more of a catalogue of shows/movies when compared to CNTV/CCTV player which is more of the day-to-day programming of Chinese TV.


Drawbacks
-Not too easy to figure out for beginners.
-Not designed to teach Chinese (no pinyin, etc).
-Connection speeds from abroad can be poor. I find the best connection speeds are when it is early morning - late morning in China-timezone (when most Chinese are less likely to be watching it)
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University of Northern Iowa Chinese Teacher's Resource Page
http://www.uni.edu/becker/chinese2.html

A huge conglomeration of every type of link for Chinese learning that you could ever imagine - dictionaries, Chinese classic writings, travel suggestions, pinyin fundamentals, free audio lessons, writing lessons, maps, etc etc.

Pros
-A mind-numbing multitude of Chinese language and culture resources.
-Literally, an insane number of Chinese learning resources.
-No, seriously guys.

Drawbacks
-Lacks a cohesive method for organization that insane number of resources.
-Seriously, it is a bit hard to sift through - use the Control-F (Find) function if you can.

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SinoSpice Blog
http://www.sinosplice.com

One of the most organized and consistently updated blogs on Mandarin I've seen. Has a variety of resources, reviews, etc. for the process of learning mandarin.

Pros
-Very organized. Offers categorical searching with some very useful subject/topics.
-Reviews on most up to date Chinese-language-learning resources. Such as iPad/Android/iPhone apps, computer apps, etc etc.
-Amazing observations on chinese language and culture based on the bloggers some 10-15 years living in China.

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Anki
http://ankisrs.net

I was only just made aware of Anki, and haven't had a chance to peruse it. Not entirely sure about this, but posted it here to find out if others know more. (and as a reminder to myself to update this if/when I get a chance to properly try it out.)

[LFJ]

Most Chinese I've talked (from China's most "developed" cities) disagree with that. You'd have to specify what you meant by "natives here" to a locality to have weight- as China is too diverse to generalize linguistic patterns.

My professors were from Beijing and around Beijing and suggested only using the term with the name attached.
e.g. "Miss Zhang" as in "Zhang Xiao Jie"

I also called a young girl who was a friend of a family I was with "Xiao Jie" in Shanghai and had some very interesting stares at me - and it was whispered to me that it is common reference for prosititute and is improper to use without a last-name before it- but that no one thought I meant that because I was a foreigner with beginner Chinese skills - although it could have been embarrassing had she been some professional acquaintance or business relation.

Perhaps in many of China's smaller/more rural/less developed cities (Such as Henan's DengFeng where many of those here have been in for extended time periods) and perhaps in the HongKong/South China where cultural norms vary it may be more acceptable than from Beijing/Shanghai/related major cities.

No. I live in Shanghai and I hear it all the time in professional settings even where the name is unknown. Professionals will simply call "xiaojie to get the attention of a young female client, and vice versa. It's very common and I've never once seen it met with distaste. I imagine only immature minds would go there in any normal context.

[Matthew]

After discussing with a couple Shanghainese about this - I believe I was partially mistaken as to its usage. That being said, I was cautioned as to its use in professional settings either way.

No. I live in Shanghai and I hear it all the time in professional settings even where the name is unknown.

I'm told it can be used similar to FuWuYuan (服务员) 'Waiter/attendant', which is just that - an impersonal term.

Interesting experience on your part, Thanks for sharing.

I only worked there for a brief full time internship and couldn't offer such personal insight. In the internship (professional business), I never once heard the term used alone. But to qualify that, I was not in meetings or outings with people I hadn't learned the name of (Such that I always could easily say their name before "XiaoJie"). Definitely did not hear it at all, or commonly though, as in your exposure there.

Professionals will simply call "xiaojie to get the attention of a young female client, and vice versa. It's very common and I've never once seen it met with distaste.

I'm told (which reflects what my Northerner-professors said) that in the North (cities like DongBei, Beijing) it has a heavy connotation of prostitute and the name should be used with it. I was given the example that in Beijing it would be more likely to hear "Da Jie" which doesn't carry the connotation. Or you could simply say "Bu Hao Yi Si" as in Excuse me.

Being how diverse populations there are, I can see that people may not think twice- as in business here in America I have seen people call their co-workers or subordinates "Honey," or "young lady" (or similar terms) despite similar age, but perhaps with different positional/workplace social-influence - whereas in other parts of America such terms are less tastefu/less professional.

I've also been cautioned - it is always better (and safer) to simply include the name with XiaoJie instead, especially if you are not sure where the person came from. Nothing wrong with verbal inclusiveness/sensitivity, and it can go a long way to show how polite you wish to be.

The Shanghainese woman I asked this question about noted she has been called XiaoJie to, but not frequently, and less in recent times - and that it's possible the increase in migrant workers and population diversification may be the cause of the terms use is waning.

[rett]

I never said anything about the extra resources, my complaint with Chinese Pod rests with the simple fact that at the beginniner and intermediate level there should be no English spoken at all.

How, exactly, in a beginning audio file lesson, are they supposed to explain the contents of a dialogue? We're talking words in Chinese the student may never have heard before.

How will they convey what the words and phrases mean in a purely audio context? Sound effects maybe? A clinking tea cup when they say 茶? That might work for a few things, but it's not going to be enough. They can't hold up a pen like a Berlitz teacher and say "pen" in the target language. Or show a flash card.

I disagree with you there. English is needed up to a point because of the format. It can be left behind once the learners know enough of the target language to understand explanations in the target language.

not enough content because too much of the podcast is wasted with banter between the hosts

You don't have to use the podcasts at all, or listen to the banter actually. I often fast forward through the middle section of elementary lessons.

You can just use the dialogue audio (which is convenient) together with the dialogue tab (giving the dialogue sentences spoken more slowly and clearly, and the characters), the vocab tab, expansion sentences tab (giving the key words in different contexts), the grammar tab, the exercises tab, and so on.

If you want "more content" just put two dialogue audios on related themes back to back. Or three. There, you've got more content and zero banter.

Chinese Pod offers a lot of flexibility in how you use it. Your complaint is about a very narrow section of what's available.

[rett]

Anyway, Pimsleur... I've experienced several languages with it. It's an alright method for getting the ball rolling, but there's way too much English and not enough vocabulary. In all 3 levels you might get 600 total words or so. That's hardly enough to do anything with and it's way overpriced for the value.

Pimsleur isn't really a complete course in my opinion. It's a tool. Essentially it's a set of drills that you can use for practising in the early stages. As I'm sure you know it's designed around their ideas about memory and staggered recall delay. The English is integrated into that, to achieve the right delays.

Drilling is a good thing. Good course teachers use it in class and it's one of the harder things to concoct for oneself during self study.

I was lucky enough to get to use a Pimsleur set for free. I agree it's extremely expensive, and it's also aging fast because online resources are moving ahead so quickly.

[rett]

Not really. This term is not outdated and I've never found it to be taken with offense, ever. Natives still use it here all the time; customers to waitresses, various professionals to young female clients, etc..

Here's a blog posting about this very question. It mentiones that xiao jie is still commonly used in Singapore but not recommended in mainland China.


http://tiffanygoeslalala.blogspot.se...-in-china.html

Here's another.

http://forums.sgclub.com/singapore/e...ao_157317.html

Of course if you're really confident about how to use it safely then that's another matter. But it's good for beginners to be advised about potential minefields.

[LFJ]

I think Pimsleur is good for what it is nonetheless, at the very beginning.

As for ChinesePod and the like, if you're at an intermediate level you really shouldn't need anything like that. You should be well on to authentic material (content not directed at learners) by that time.

Watch movies, TV shows, read books, etc.. That's the way to really increase your vocabulary and reach fluency more quickly. Cultural points will naturally be noticed along the way because it's authentic material, by Chinese for Chinese.

If you're intermediate already, there's no reason to have your hand held anymore.

[LFJ]

Here's a blog posting about this very question. It mentiones that xioa jie is still commonly used in Singapore but not recommended in mainland China.


http://tiffanygoeslalala.blogspot.se...-in-china.html

Here's another.

http://forums.sgclub.com/singapore/e...ao_157317.html

Of course if you're really confident about how to use it safely then that's another matter. But it's good for beginners to be advised about potential minefields.

Young 20-something girls with attitudes.

Chinese friends here in Shanghai have called waitresses with "xiaojie" and I've heard it in various other settings where it is obvious the person is just saying "miss" and is not name-calling. No one even bats an eyelash at it.

These young girls with attitudes are just immature and looking for trouble.

[rett]

Young 20-something girls with attitudes.

Chinese friends here in Shanghai have called waitresses with "xiaojie" and I've heard it in various other settings where it is obvious the person is just saying "miss" and is not name-calling. No one even bats an eyelash at it.

These young girls with attitudes are just immature and looking for trouble.

Some words are social minefields. You have to know how to use them.

I heard people use the "n word" in the USA all the time. Can I use it? Not a chance.

It might be one of those things where it's tricky, and non-natives are advised to avoid it unless they really understand the social pragmatics involved. I have no personal experience of what happens if you say xiaojie because I've avoided it and always say fuwuyuan.

[rett]

I think Pimsleur is good for what it is nonetheless, at the very beginning.

As for ChinesePod and the like, if you're at an intermediate level you really shouldn't need anything like that. You should be well on to authentic material (content not directed at learners) by that time.

Watch movies, TV shows, read books, etc.. That's the way to really increase your vocabulary and reach fluency more quickly. Cultural points will naturally be noticed along the way because it's authentic material, by Chinese for Chinese.

If you're intermediate already, there's no reason to have your hand held anymore.

Well I'd call the "intermediate" lessons on Chinese Pod more a set of lessons designed to get you to an intermediate level. That's how I'm experiencing them anyway.

And by definition, if someone using Chinese Pod gets to where they can abandon it and just learn from from their environment and media, well that certifies that CP was very useful for them, doesn't it?

Also, not everyone is a lone wolf. Many people learn best and make more of an effort in a social environment with other students and teachers. CP is remarkably good at providing that for an online setting.

In any case from my own experience of learning Swedish and German to fluency in situ, structured course material and explanations of finer points are still extremely useful even after you take the plunge into authentic material.

I don't know much about CP's upper-intermediate, advanced, and media lessons since I don't use them. But the blurb on the media lessons says that they use authentic media tidbits for teaching. And they have all-Chinese hosts.

[LFJ]

I have no personal experience of what happens if you say xiaojie because I've avoided it and always say fuwuyuan.

That's always a safe bet. There are always alternatives. I've just never seen such a situation as described in those articles. I haven't even noticed mild awkwardness for the numerous times I've heard it used.

Well I'd call the "intermediate" lessons on Chinese Pod more a set of lessons designed to get you to an intermediate level.

I guess it depends on how they define levels, but I prefer to break away from learner material as quickly as possible. Try to understand the structure of the language first, then build vocabulary and "notice" the rest of the grammar as you go. Lots of vocabulary in context is the big thing. Learner material often doesn't give good enough context.

I started Pimsleur German a few months ago and had learned some back in high school. After a month or two I was on to movies and television, having enough of a feel for the language that I could just use it to pick out new words and phrases.

Also, not everyone is a lone wolf. Many people learn best and make more of an effort in a social environment with other students and teachers. CP is remarkably good at providing that for an online setting.

I've been a member on LingQ for some years now. It has a community of language learners from all over the world who offer conversation and writing corrections for each other, but the bulk of learning is spent on studying authentic audio and transcripts from the user library, saving new words for review as you go. There's a lot of great Chinese content for all levels there.

Here's a video introduction of how it works: www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MC5NaKdZdg

[Matthew]

Had some time to use FluentU recently and wanted to comment based on my limited exposure for those considering it.

Definitely seems worth some time practicing with this method.

Pros
-Offers immersion as simple as possible (in a single computer window, without having to break out a printed sheet, corresponding book, audio file, etc)
-Unique format for Chinese learning that takes full advantage of today's best technology
-Each video shows Chinese characters (simplified or traditional - you choose), with pinyin next to them, and a corresponding english translation next to it.
-A simple mouse-hover over any chinese character offers english definition, and the ability to see more examples/pronunciation/further learning.
-Offers video clips from many shows, commercials/advertisements, and other modern outlets - so a good amount of options for your taste
-Free EDIT: No Longer Free, but for some basic account features. Best features require monthly/yearly paid account.
-Easy to use, gets my vote for most effective & efficient character-to-dictionary translation of anything (I use Pleco on my smartphone along side all of my other
learning software/platforms)
-Has awesome potential for future as technology improves
-(I wonder if they have an iPad/iPhone/Android/mobile app in the works?)
-Learning process is very simple, very easy to use

Drawbacks
-Limited to a full-computer experience (not useful in mp3 players, in the car/bus/etc, on the go)
-May not offer as much for writing practice - such as print outs of the scripts, etc.
-Limited number of structured courses (I think 11 Total from all difficulty levels if I remember right)
-Learning process is very simple, and may lack the depth of other learning methods

UPDATED AUGUST 2013: Now is a paid service, except for the limited experience sign-up.

[rett]

Kind of an interesting coincidence... ChinesePod just sent out a promo email with what they recommend as the five best free online resources. FluentU is on the list.

The free dictionary they recommend is http://www.nciku.com/

I just checked it out, and it looks quite nice. Will definitely check out FluentU after Matthew's description and the CP recommendation.

[stonecrusher69]

www.sexymandarin.com

I wounder if I can get a happy ending