Zhao Bao Tai Qi Quan

[Sum Guye]

Would the attacker have shattered his knee without the backhanded fa-jing?


...in a street fight everything counts.

[Shaolin Master]

Zhao Bao Taijiquan is an excellent form of taijiquan.
There are 2 major schools of thought Xiao Jia and Da Jia, in addition Hu Lei Jia and Heh Shi (which eventually became Sun Style) are also sub branches. Xiao Jia is also referred to as Heh Style it consists of between 73 - 76 postures pending lineage.

Da Jia is that of our lineage, it consists of 108 postures, we practise at 2 speeds and 3 frames at the basic level (Zhong, Da and Xiao Jia). We also contain another 14 or so frames which are considered more advanced these include Hu Lei Jia, Gong Fu Jia, Chan Xu, Ling Luo Jia and many more.

There are many weapons in our taijiquan including Sword, staff, spear, broadsword, double broadsword, long handle axe, spring autumn knife, etc....

Our history maintains that the are was passed on by Jiang Fa and was propagated to Zhao Bao by Chen Qing Ping.
Previously the Chen Style histories were more commonly known because of the popularity of the texts and stories of Chen Wang Ting.

However recently many of our uncles and masters have provided texts and documents to support our taijiquan's place.

My Master Zhou had provided me with a copy of an old text that outlined our taijiquan many years ago. Its theory is excellent and comparable in combat and effectiveness to any other taijiquan.

Regards,

[red_fists]

Shaolin Master.

Are you aware of any Zha Bao Instructors in the greater Tokyo area in Japan?

[Shaolin Master]

Just to give some information about Zhao Bao Taijiquan for those uninitiated (These are translated from Chinese):

Chen Qingping (1795-1868), the seventh generation of Zhaobao style Taijiquan and a native of Zhaobao, was a gifted and talented individual because he was well versed in both literary arts and martial arts.
¡¡¡¡
He was also a key person in the history of Taijiquan. He not only achieved a high level in the taijiquan but was also good at summing up its concepts, theories and practical methodolgies. Furthermore, he contributed to its theory in a great way.
He taught students in accordance with their aptitude, imparting on them dailijia, lingluojia, or tengnuojia separately.

Yang Lu-Ch'an, the founder of Yang style Taijiquan, in the preface of the book ¡°Yang-Style Taijiquan¡±says:

.¡±¡°I learned Taijiquan from Chen Changxing in Chenjiagou Village, but I mastered it from Chen Qingping in Zhaobao Town.¡±

From the Yang Style, the Wu (Ng) Style evolved and propagated in modern times by well known masters such as Ma Yueh Liang and his wife (the daughter of the founder).

Wu Yuxiang, the founder of Wu (Mo) style Taijiquan, learned the arts and theory of Taijiquan from Zhao Bao Master Chen QingPing and received from him a book,¡°Taiji Manual,¡±written by Wang Zongyue.

Based on the Taiji Manual,¡±Wu Yuxiang initiated Wu style Taijiquan. Sun Style then evolved from the Wu Style.

Chen Qingping also taught his skills to Jingyang (his son Chen), Zhang Yingchang, He Zhaoyuan, Niu Fahu, Li Jingyan, Li Zhuozhi, Ren Changchun, and Zhang Jingzhi, etc. All of them were the eighth generation of Zhaobao Taijiquan.

¡¡¡¡Among them, He Zhaoyuan was the best, who had been the guard of Li Tangjie, a minister in the cabinet in the Qing Dynasty. For this, he became a high martial officer. He developed and in novated Zhaobao style Taijiquan: thus it was referred to as ¡°He" style Taijiquan. Hu Lei Jia is another branch of Zhao Bao Taijiquan.

In China, there are many forms of Taijiquan : Li, Hong, YueMen, BaguaTaiji, Wudang Taiji, San Feng Taiji, etc.......with alot more research documents being founded continuously...

Unfortunately only Chen family manuals were used in the days after the CRn, recently alot of documents kept within families have been released to the benefit of historians and the the martial arts afficionados of the world.

Regards,
Wu Chan Long
NanChang, JiangXi Prov, PRC

[Shaolin Master]

Mi Xi (disciple of Lao Zi) after many generations passed the Taiji concepts through generations to Zhang Sanfeng, and after sev-eral generations to Wang Linzhen, of Taigu County, Shanxi Prov. Wang passed his skills to Jiang Fa of Wenxian County, Henan Province. Jiang Fa then passed it on to Zhaobao village.
Jiang Fa, 1st generation of Zhaobao Taijiquan, was born in the 2nd year of the reign of Wanii in the Ming Dynasty. He lived in a small village named Xiaoliu Village, several kilometers from Zhaobao Village.
¡¡¡¡When he was 22 years old and competed with others, he happened to be noticed by an old man who occassionally stayed at an inn in Zhaobao VIllage. The old man had a talk with others about the competition and said:¡°Between them, the young man wearing the purple cotton gown (e.g., Jiang Fa) has a rather good, natural gift.¡±
¡¡¡¡The innkeeper passed on the old man's comment to Jiang Fa. Hearing that, Jiang Fa knew that the old man must be a master with advanced skills.
Then he asked the innkeeper to call on the old man with him and expressed to him that he hoped to formally acknowledge him as his master, so as to learn martial arts from him.
¡¡¡¡The old man(who was Wang Linzhen), refused him, giving an excuse that he was too busy with his business. However, he agreed to teach him at last after Jiang Fa's continuous plea.
¡¡¡¡The next day, Mr. Wang was leaving for Zheng Zhou to inspect how his businesses were going. Jiang Fa saw his master off at Sishui Ferry. Before saying goodbye, they made an agreement for Mr. Wang to come back to find Jiang and take him to Shanxi Province to teach him Taijiquan.
¡¡On the given day, Jiang went to the ferry to meet his master, and Mr. Wang arrived on time. Jiang went back home with his master. After some prepara-tions were made, he went to his mas-ter's hometown in Shanxi Province and learned Taijiquan from him for seven years. A good relationship was established between them.
¡¡¡¡Master Wang told Jiang Fa: "I learned this kind of martial skill from a wandering Taoist priest. He told me that this kind of boxing had a long history, and there is a direction put in verse to be as evidence for it.
¡°It says: 'Taiji comes from Tian Di (the Earth and Heaven); initiated by Laozi and passed on by his disciples; . . . after teaching you the skill, you can become immortal.' Now I have taught you the special skills and told you the secret methods. You should teach it only to selected individuals, but never to casual students.¡±

[Esteban]

Hi SM,

is this the standard history of Zhaobao? I mean, are there other histories that are not the same? I am copying what you write, and I'd like to put it into a context.

Tia,
Esteban

[RAF]

Esteban:

If you go back last year or so to the Tai Chi Magazine there was a two part series laying Zhaobao's system and their take on history.

Looks like more Village Squabbles to me.

[GLW]

I agree with RAF...

Chen Village and Zhao bao have argued for years about the origins. In the past, all records and dutiful historians that looked into it ended up agreeing with Chenjiagou. This, obviously, did not make Zhaobao happy.

In recent years, there have been fewer really top notch historians working on this. Many seem content to either write down legends and then look for 'facts' to support them or worse yet, attempt to make a name for themselves by rewriting history or refuting more well established sources that DID do a large amount of in depth research.

The keys for BS detection : when they start throwing around Zhang Sangfeng.... No proof that such a person ever existed.

Jiang Fa - so many people in different eras have laid claim to this person as either a teacher or a student.

Books found in salt shops..., scrolls, etc.... Old Taoist hermits, take your pick.

At this point, if you go back beyond about 400 years, all you get is myth and legend....and those attempting to do it have consistently shown themselves to usually be much less than objective.

[RAF]

GLW:

I pulled an earlier post because I really don't want to see another flame war. My experience with Hu Lei Jia (Hu Long Jia) and private footage (1990) from Zhaobao Village area leads me to conclude that it came from Chen system but I am in no position to offer anything but an opinion.

Wujidude:

There was also a historian Xu Zhen who also corroborated some of Tang Hao's "speculation". I guess we in the West only got Henning, Wile, and Kang Gewu. What the heck!

However, we do know that Yang Lu Chan learned in the Chen Village and there is nothing else solid to speculate regarding on what Yang Lu Chan did to change it. Everything about what he did is speculation. I think the safest and most sound conclusion is that Yang's taijiquan is derived from Chen's taijiquan.

Interestingly, one of my martial arts associates thinks that much of the Yang Cheng Fu form is closer to the original Chen's taiji than the current Chen versions on the market. So rather than arguing why Yang's doesn't look like Chen's, it goes to an opposite observation: Why don't the current Chen forms look more like the Yang forms? Assuming that the Yang form is more closer to the original Chen taijiquan. Interesting way to look at it.

Let me end on this factual note:

"Martial arts use of Yin-Yang theory can be traced back as far as the story of the Maiden of Yue in the Spring and Autumn Annals of Wu and Yue, a book written around 100 C.E. about the history of the ancient state of Yue (fifth century B.C.E.)." Henning, "The Origin of the Name "Taijiquan", Taiji Journal Winter 2001.

IMHO, taijiquan is not as special as we have made it to be. Many Chinese martial arts system employ yin/yang theory, breathing (neigong, qi-gong), etc, etc. Its a good system but not necessarily superior to other systems.

[Shaolin Master]

The History is mainly from Du Yuan Hua ...who wrote "Authentic Taijiquan" early this century.

To put it into context, to revise Post 1 :

Yang Lu Chan claims in his own writings that although he learned TJQ in Chen village he mastered it in Zhao Bao, this means something must have been different or gained there for him to have mastered it there : If one considers how Yang flows and chen flows the differences are easily visible. Zhao Bao shares the shape like chen but only the execution like Chen in a different frame training method for the sake of developing certain skills.

Wu Yu Xiang even acknowledges the Zhao Bao influence.

I am not doing anything but elaborating on our families TJQ and its histories, stories etc... as they are not properly known as yet.

Chen Style is said to have not only incorporated Shaolin into their methods but even Xin Yi Liu He Quan. Some say that it was because their understanding was incomplete of TJ£Ñ£®

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[RAF]

Interesting, although I have yet to hear of any direct writings from Yang Lu Chan. Never seen them in quoted articles. Are you sure Yang Lu Chan was literate? About 90% of the Chinese population at that time was illiterate.

However, the very first level of Chen training is playing the form (lao jia, Chen Yenxi) in the same tempo and slowness as Yang's taijiquan and without fajing expression, except for kicks, and Fu Zhong Wen clearly documents that even Yang Cheng Fu in his earlier days also expressed his kicks with fajing expression.

My own speculation (hypothesis) is that there is a link to Emperor Song's Tai Zu Quan regarding slowness in training and breathing and that is what influenced the training level in Chen's taiji.

However, as pointed in Fu Zhong Wen's own history of Yang style, Yang Lu Chan's flavor is very much in line with Chen style flavor. Public forms were changed and it appears that Yang Cheng Fu even furher reduced expressions of fajing. So the tempo that the Zhao Bao claim was given to Yang Lu Chan's form is not what he played, if you believe Fu Zhong Wen. That is, Yang style tempo of today is a relatively new invention: Yang Cheng Fu's 3rd iteration around the 1930s.

I think the public form tempo of the Yang style is simply the first training level, kind of like moving stance work but this is purely conjecture on my part. (in all the Northern Chinese styles I have studied so far, there is always some type of training level with a form that focuses primarily on stance and alignment trainng. Even in bagua I have seen the use of static 8 mother palms in the standing post horse stance used as qi and structure training).

As far as pao chuei, Fu Zhong Wen son does single moving postures with fajing expression, taught similar to what Jou Tsung Hwa taugh in the early 1980s. This correspondences to Chen's 2nd level and although it is not a form, I find single moving postures in just about every old training style of Northern Chinese martial arts. Link up the single moving postures and you got a pao chuei form. It is my undocumented understanding, that forms are modern luxary and single moving training was key to training troops and individuals in the older days. It naturally fed into two man applications.

The writings of the ZhaoBao holders, to my knowledge, have yet to be evaluated by the taiji community at large and that is very important in assessing the validity of their claims.

If and that is a big IF, we believe the stories, Yang Lu Chan went seeking out challenges to prove his martial arts prowess. And yes, he went seeking only to return to the Chen Village for more training (12 to 18 years if you believe the stories).. Even the Yang lineage holders accept this (perhaps the Zhang Man Qing holders of Taiwan do not,).

I have yet hear of any Yang lineage holder ever espousing this linkage to ZhaoBao, but if true, would lead to some interesting changes. But its troubling to hear that the ZhaoBao's lineage is founded on assertions of people who most likely never existed or simply existed in myth.

Until then, its still Village Squabbles for me and ZhaoBao, Hu Lei Jia all come from Chen's.

The burden of proof lies with ZhaoBao researchers to test their claims to peer review and documentation outside their own Village. Its their job to put out the documentation and have the historical community sort it out.

Their reliance on Zhang Sang Feng as a founder further convinces me that they want their share in the Taiji market. Who can blame them, right?

ZhaoBao and Hu Lei Jia stand in their own right as martial arts systems regardless of where they came from or who formed them.

I wouldn't get to caught up in using its oral history as a marketing ploy to assert the "superiority" of the ZhaoBao system. Don't fall for the crass commercialization of martial arts and learn from Temple at Songshan.

[RAF]

Wujidude:

Thanks for the info and great post. Actually whether Chen Wangting did or did not invent taijiquan is not as interesting as the ad hoc speculation of what Yang Lu Chan did to what he learned from Chen Changxing. Everyone seems to pile on with why their Yang's taiji is so different and so superior to Chen's and I just can't see it.

My Yang's version (Li Jing Lin-->Zhang Xiang Wu-->Liu Yun Qiao) is no better or worse than most but we do have a tornado kick, a closing posture similar to Chen's, and a interesting Dan Bian which follows our own Chen's version. This version of dan bian involves a block, and a collapsing palm strike (ta zhang) to the heart. My own Chen's version takes most of its frame from Du Yu Ze (Chen Yenxi), hu lei jia (Liu's relationship to a zhao bao master, Wang ShuShen and Du Yu Ze) and Fake's form (1930s, Wang Meng Bi, which he called xiao jia and Tony really liked because of its simplicity, small frame but low postures) and Liu's exchange with Fake in 1928, Beijing).

So I guess some would refer to me as a Baastaaardyzed (W)hore but I have long given up on purity and virginity and I am an outcast in most Chen circles, except one of Ma Hong's formal students liked my form.

However, Liu's arrangement of the 3 levels of abstractions in Chen's was done in the 1970s, long before the commercialization and popularization of Chen's. It was done as an honest attempt to help preserve a great martial art. He also didn't believe modern practitioners would have enough time to really dedicate to the traditonal long forms and abstractions would help give them a taste and maybe encouragement to continue deeper into the system.

Interestingly, our 3rd level of Chen's abstraction begins with snap front kick and then Buddha pound mortar and I saw Feng Zhiqiang perform this opening in his younger years (on film). This is what I originally went to Tony Yang for in 1988 and is what I have practice and know best in his system. You can guess, long before my computer arrived, I spent a lot of years looking, reading and focusing in the taijiquan side of the Wu Tang. (from previous posts you know most of my time is now taken up in bagua but I never forget my first love and visit her often).

As was indicated in a PM, one of Feng Zhiqiang's formal students also practiced baji, which I personally is a great fit (basic training) with Chen's taiji (Xing Yi also seems to be a good fit--the basic training complements each other).

So I really appreciate the information you add. I also have seen some of the Zhaobao style and would like to learn more (I have one of the Zhaobao tapes of a master given to me as a gift. Its interesting but they played Western classical music in its background and it drives me nutz). The 1990 private footage was given to me by someone who visited the Village and its also interesting.

So, I am not here to flame Zhaobao style or any teacher.

Thank you too Shaolin Master.

[GLW]

Some interesting notes here...

Some comments:

Tang Hao was NOT exactly a PRC hack. He was researching the origins and history of Taijiquan way before the existence of the PRC government.

While NOT all of his conculsions are correct, he is truly important because he was the first person to look into this stuff and NOT accept the verbal history and the "Because my teacher said so" and the "Well everyone KNOWS this to be the truth" as fact and actually look beyond that for supporting records. That he may or may not have been fooled by hucksters in believing a document or two were legit is not surprising. He also bought himself a load of threats and enemies because he debunked a number of closely held myths.

He is also important in being a mentor to people like Gu Luxin. Gu personally attributed some of his beginning work and interests to Tang Hao's influences. (Not to mention that Tang Hao was a good calligraphy teacher ...but that is another story).

As for the Yang Luchan writings...I find that highly suspect. Yang was from a poor family. Although some of the history stories have been changed...the original line ...NOT often repeated by the Yang family due to some level of embarrassment due to their humble beginnings.... was that Yang was SOLD as an indentured servant to the Chen family. At that time, this was QUITE common. A poor family would secure a position for their child with a well off family as a servant. The family would get some money to help them live and the child would be taken care of by the rich family as a servant....but would only be set free from the bond if the money was paid back. This indenturing was also seen in the US with many immigrants paying for their passage to New York this way. Problem is that it is VERY hard to make and save enough money to pay the bond...so the servant becomes a servant for life....and that translates as legal slavery.

Anyway, no one would spend time teaching a servant to read and write. Records of Yang's sons are sparce but it has been noted by many sources that Yang Chengfu was illiterate...smart and talented...but not educated.

It is extremely unlikely that a family where the parents are literate would produce a son that is not... So, logically speaking, it is not likely that Yang Luchan was literate. Not likely that an illiterate man would end up with literate sons unless he worked at it...and the relationship between Yang Luchan and his sons has been noted as 'harsh'...and Yang Chengfu has been noted as illiterate...so....

I doubt that the writings are personally from Yang Luchan.

Now, this does NOT mean that he could not have transmitted the information orally to a literate person, friend, or student....but the family would have records of this.

Fu Zhongwen's early work mention many of thes items about Yang Luchan and such...but in later editions, the story has been edited and made to make the Yang family look better off. Personally, I feel that starting from such a point and rising to a level makes you even MORE respectable....but that is my take.

[GLW]

Actually, we are not that far apart. I am simply maintaining that pople liike Tang Hao, byt the very fact that they attempted to bring a method to looking into the background, deserve a bit of thanks.

As for his political leanings, I can tell you that EVERY college level history class I ever had...and political science and even psychology were infiltrated with the professor's political viewpoints. It made for some interesting classes when you had a profssor that was a socialist teaching with an extreme my country right or wrong type... But, you did learn to read between the lines and ask WHY would someone draw a particular conclusion.

Never met an historian who got it anywhere near all correct....

By 400 years, I am saying back to about 400 years you can say that Chenjiagou did their stuff. you can also say that Yang learned from who...and all.

As for WHO really created it, where it came from and such...prior to that you can't say much of anything. Even the records much older tha 150 years begin to be very very suspect in all things.

We can definitely say, though, that many of the versions of history are less than believable... I mean Zhang Sanfeng...who buys that one?

History in all its forms is purely revisionist. US history from one professor to another is different. Even accounts of the whats and whys of things within my lifetime have been altered by many. So, I find that you have to look at it with a very broad brush...and see patterns but hold nothing too dear.

To actually have to admit that one doesn't have the foggiest notion...that is indeed scary to a lot of people.

[Walter Joyce]

And believe it or not, lawyers are trained in objective thought, it is critical to success. But like all humans, including historians, we still carry our biases with us, both personal and client related.