Zhao Bao Tai Qi Quan

[Black Fist]

I have recently come accross some article mentioning Zhao Bao Taiqiquan. Could anyone with experience or knowledge, explain to me this form of Taiqiquan and is it from chen style like Yang or is it later and what its characteristics ?

Thanks in advance.

[dz]

Greetings,

I maybe am off topic with this reply. First,
I don't know anything about the style you
asked about, but the romanized translation
of Tai Chi Chuan should be Taijiquan,
not Taiqiquan since the "Chi" in TCC isn't
the same as the romanized "Qi" (as in Qigong).

Personally, I would be quite sceptical towards
anyone that teaches Taijiquan that doesn't
understand the basic meaning of the name.

I'm not judging the style or teacher, just
pointing out a wrong translation. Hope I didn't
cause too much confusion. :)

Regards,
Wai

[This message was edited by Wai on 01-16-01 at 03:08 AM.]

[eightgates]

Hi Black Fist,

In the history as I learned it, a contemporary of Chen Changxin (Yang Luchan's teacher) named Chen Yuben reformulated the Lao Jia (Old Frame) to Xin Jia (New Frame - not to be confused with the present day usage of the term by modern Chen stylists for Chen Fake's post 1940's version of the routine). Chen Qingping, who learned this new frame, refined it further and it became known as the Xiao Jia (Small Frame) or Zhaobao Jia (Zhaobao Frame) after the village where he lived. The circles and movements of the form I learned are somewhat tighter and expression of fajing less obvious. I've seen videos of what is currently coming out of Zhaobao village, but it looks very different. I don't find this surprising or have a problem with it since there are many versions within all the various styles of Taijiquan. My grandmaster learned his Zhaobao form during the 1930's or 40's and what is coming out of Zhaobao may have been modified since that time just like the modifications to the Lao Jia, Chen Fake taught him.

For an excellent (and controversial) site on the various histories and styles of Taijiquan, see Peter Lim's site at
<A HREF="http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/index.htm" TARGET="_blank">http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/index.htm</A>

Best wishes, :)
eightgate

[davy]

I'm looking for somebody who has information about Zhao Bao Taiji...

Thanks

[dingo]

Here are some links you might want to check out: http://web.singnet.com.sg/~limttk/historg8.htm, and here: http://www.digidao.com/nzhaojia.htm and finally here: http://cronus.spaceports.com/~zhaobao/history.html. Hope that helps.

[GLW]

1. Zhao Bao village is not that far from Chen Village. There was and always has been an intermingling of styles due to proximity. So it would not be surprising to find Chen Qingping's contemporaries doing similar things. However, the records kept in Chenjiagou are much more detailed than those in Zhao Bao.

2. There has been a rivalry between Chenjiagou and Zhao Bao for a long time. Rivalries tend to foster "we invented it...no we did..." arguments.

3. The one guy in California uses the Zhang Sanfeng myth, Wang Tsung Yueh, Jiang Fa...to support the origins of Zhao Bao style.

Zhang Sanfeng is pretty much a myth except for non-scholarly non-Chinese speaking people. You cna even trace where this myth got introduced into Taijiquan history and it was after the Yang family got into Taijiquan.

Wang is mentioned in places and there are treatises attributed to him but the proof of him is scant. This one is debatable.

Jiang Fa....mentioned in places but some say he taught Wang ...some that Wang taught him. Again, debatable.

It really boils down to who do you want to believe...Zhao Bao village or Chen...

However, according to Chen records, Chen Qingping married, went to Zhao Bao and was told by the Chen village NOT to teach the family art there. he was noted to have been secretive about teaching in some instances I have read and also known for emphasizing parts of Chen style that were not like everyone else...so it is quite possible that he did create Zhao Bao...and the people there claim creation.

It is even possible that both Zhao Bao and Chen have a similar root....and remotely possible that Zhao Bao created it. The propaganda they wish to put out is that their version was the original and that the PRC government kept the story from being told. This is actually not too true. Beginning in the 1950's Chen (and so Zhao Bao as well) were viewed as being "NOT Taijiquan" by many because it was so different from Yang, Wu, etc... There was a meeting on this and many wished to exclude Chen from discussion because it was "Not Taijiquan but Cannon Fist" This attitude continued until the late 1970s (end of the Cultural Revolution). Those of us who rmember that far back can relate to the fact that there were NO Chen style teachers in the west to speak of. In the US you had Yang and Wu styles (Many yang people...Guan Ping, Yang Chengfu, Cheng Man Ching) and you had people like Sophia Delza (student of Ma Yueliang) doing Wu. No Sun Wu/Hao, or Chen.

Then people 'discovered' Chen. Then came Sun in about 1990 (there may have been one or two who did it but not many) then Wu Hao got noticed again in the mid 90's (largely due to Jimmy Wong.)

So the history is all convoluted and full of propaganda and politics...regardless of who is talking.

Having seen Zhao Bao...I can say that to me it looks like modified Chen style...a bit softer with a bit more stance movement and a little less spiraling energy.

Now, seeing as how the styles that come from Chen: Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao and Sun, all display more softness, modified use of stances, and less spiraling energy, IMHO, the evolution from Chen tends to be in that direction. So, I surmise that Zhao Bao might have come from Chen because it follows that same pattern of softening. THIS PART is my opinion....but based upon at least a little bit of logic.

The real issue is whether or not it is Taijiquan...it is... so if you find a good teacher and like it...great. Taijiquan has enough diversity to offer something to many different people.

[davy]

Thanks to you all:in fact, I did practice some time, but my form is not as good as it used to be so I'm looking for informations about practising the form................................

[Felipe Bido]

Hey

Does anyone practices this style?. I was reading the history, but I couldn't find anything else. How is it like?



.

[looking_up]

And is it related to Xiao Jia?

[RAF]

Felipe:

Zhaobao, Hu Lei Jia and Xiao Jia, all seem to have overlapping posture but played with different flavors.

If you can get a copy of Adam Hsu's Hu Lei Jia (Thunderstyle) tape you can view both Adam's and a clip from the Village area. I also want to correct something here. Tom pointed out in another website and I think I gave the impression that Hu Lei Jia and Zhaobao were the same and THEY ARE NOT.

A friend of mine went to the village where Hu Lei Jia is played and filmed them and there is also a Zhaobao VCD (Jarek had copies of the VCD) of a master playiing it.

Posture-wise, I found it to be similiar to lao jia but the flavor and tempo, to me, is very different and I am not sure how fajing is expressed.

Also the film Roam about The Taiji World has some Zhao Bao demonstrations. Ted Mancuso's site has copies of this.

Relative to Chen's lao jia and xin jia (Chen Xiao Wang, 1988 performance) these offshoots all have seem to have something missing regarding power and fajing except for the woman in Roam about the Taiji World who does the xiao jia style. In the personal film, years later, she also plays a private performance and her power and fajing is obvious.

[GLW]

Zhaobao villiage is relatively close to Chenjiagou (Chen village).

There is a disagreement between the folks in Zhaobao and Chen on the origin of Zhaobao and Chen style Taijiquan.

Zhaobao folks maintain that THEY created Taijiquan and that Chen Wanting learned from them and took it to Chenjiagou. This is contrary to the normal accepted version of Taijiquan history.

Chen folks maintain that Taijiquan originated in Chenjiagou and that via a marriage, it was transmitted to Zhaobao. Then for some reasons - either time or family secrets (told not to teach it all - but this may be false) or that the person who took Taijiquan to Zhaobao had his own interpretation of things that then proliferated to those who learned from him....

In any case, in form it resembles Chen greatly (lao jia a lot). What you think of it is truly a personal preference. For me, I prefer well done Chen over well done Zhaobao - but that is my personal preference.

Both are valid legitimate lineages and have a lot of value.

[Sum Guye]

ask Tim Cartmell about Zhoa Boa... he teaches it to anyone who
is tough enough to get through the warm up excersies (I've learned the begining set.. but it'll be a while before I can do them all without collapsing at the end).

Tim also has an amazing story about a friend of ours who recently defended himself using a Zhao Boa movement he'd just learned (resulting in his attacker getting a broken jaw, a crushed petela and a fractured skull... I'm sure Tim can tell the facts better than I can).


I think you've been there before... it's the discussion board on www.shenwu.com.

[Felipe Bido]

Thanks for the info, guys

Hey Sum Guye, I always read Tim's message board. His explanations are great.

"Tim also has an amazing story about a friend of ours who recently defended himself using a Zhao Boa movement he'd just learned (resulting in his attacker getting a broken jaw, a crushed petela and a fractured skull... I'm sure Tim can tell the facts better than I can). "

D'amn!...I feel sorry for the poor guy who got the beating. wow.

[Sum Guye]

the beating was well deserved.

(all that damage was caused by one backhand strike)

[kungfu cowboy]

How did he crush his patella with a backhand to the head ? Did the guy fall on his knee? That doesn't count.