Conditioning theory?

[Ray Pina]

If I told you I could blow a small piece of paper from my extended palm would you believe me?

You don't have to take my word for it, I can show you.

I can train it and maybe blow heavier construction paper and work my way up to an empty pint of milk ... like you used to drink in grade school. With a lot of training, maybe blow a full one off.

This all sounds pretty reasonable but would you believe me if I told you I can face you in a fight and blow on you and you'll disapear too? Of course not. The method I'm training has a ceiling, can only go so far.

Likewise, lifting static dead weight will give me a power increase, no doubt about it. But there is also a ceiling. The 180lbs guy can maybe pump up to 200lbs, 225lbs, but what type of power does he have in the face of the 350lbs guy? Does he tell him, "No, I only fight at 200lbs."

Also, dead static weight only teaches one to resists. What happens when I slip a 45lbs weight off of only one side of your bench bar? Hell of a time, right?

What happens when the other guy suddenly releases his pressure? Did you hear it and feel it happening? Did you maintain your balance?

A two man set also develops power, whole body power, but also trains this type of listening.

Just food for though inspired by some recent training and experience.

[Merryprankster]

Likewise, lifting static dead weight will give me a power increase, no doubt about it. But there is also a ceiling. The 180lbs guy can maybe pump up to 200lbs, 225lbs, but what type of power does he have in the face of the 350lbs guy? Does he tell him, "No, I only fight at 200lbs."

Nope, but he sure stands a better chance at very strong 225 than he did at a reasonably in shape 180.

Also, dead static weight only teaches one to resists. What happens when I slip a 45lbs weight off of only one side of your bench bar? Hell of a time, right?

And that's why you incorporate things like gymnastics and or "odd object" training or body lifts and carries. To teach you better kinesthetic awareness.

What happens when the other guy suddenly releases his pressure? Did you hear it and feel it happening? Did you maintain your balance?

Yup. That's what nearly a decade of grappling experience will do for you.

[fa_jing]

Ray, thanks to you I have stopped prescribing marijuana to my patients.

[Ray Pina]

So are you saying that even though it is impossible for me to blow over the cinderblock with my breath I should continue training it because it will NOT blow over in a better way than if I didn’t train it?

Dude, I know you are smarter than this.

If I’m not mistaken I believe you aren’t that big. Can you lift yourself to match my power? Seven Star’s? Fighters who weight 300lbs +? What about the guys like you who think the same way? They’re not sitting at home eating Ring Dings while you condition.

Yet, you are skilled and successful and can beat anyone on any given day. It’s not your physical power, it’s your TECHNICAL POWER, use of leverage that wins the day.

Physical power is a great advantage when you have it. When you’re a stone you don’t mind smashing the egg. But stone to stone or egg to egg is foolish. To imply the egg do something to make it’s shell even 100% tougher, completely double its natural ability, and then go smack the brick is nothing short of retarted.

Please know I am not talking about competition. When you are matched with someone similar in size and weight – and you plan on fighting under rule sets designed to prolong the match – any slight advantage is a slight advantage.

But to take that model and apply it to Martial Arts is dangerous. If the fly weight is to defeat the super heavy weight …. will victory be found in the weight room or in the tactics, strategy and technique of the fighter?

[Merryprankster]

I don't know if your post is directed at me or not, but if it is, your reading comprehension is lacking today.

Lifting weights and conditioning should be integral to any martial artist seeking to optimize their fighting ability. It is not "the priority," but every bit of advantage helps. A 180 lbs fighter, fighting a 300 lbs person is at more disadvantage than a 225 lbs fighter, all other things being equal.

There is a "law of diminishing returns," with respect to everything. If you practice a move 10,000 times, your ability to improve that movement on the 10,001 rep is extremely small. To get absolutely perfect, I'd have to drop everything else in my life. In order for me to get as strong as possible, I'd have to dedicate my whole life to only that, etc.

Assuming your fighting base is good to very good or better, you may reap more benefit from increasing your stamina and strength. While certainly, most street fights are short - 1. 45 seconds to a 1:30 is PLENTY of time for stamina to become an issue. 2. Strength matters - especially the less you have time to "work" your opponent over. None of this has to be at the expense of technique work, at least not for a normal person, who works, has a life, etc.

It's ALL important.

Body, mind and spirit work together to produce victory. Optimizing all of them as well as you can afford to, while not sacrificing progress in any of them, is best. That's a balancing act, sure, but totally doable.

[Ray Pina]

Good points and well said. I can't argue with what you said.

Just keep in mind that stylisticly we are at opposite ends of the spectrum. You study a young man's style that is somewhat arrogant .... I study an old man's style that views every foe as being younger, stronger, faster, etc.

Lifting, and conditioning in general, only reinforces natural ability aspects that I have very little control over.

Iraqi insurgents can not match the US's firepower or troop size .... but they can still fight us. This is the type of mindset I enjoy when it comes to combat.

Lifting is like requesting more and more troops. But how many troops do you have? And when you become in the habit of relying on sheer number of forces, what happens when you are outnumbered, or simply out manuevered?

[Merryprankster]

You study a young man's style that is somewhat arrogant .... I study an old man's style that views every foe as being younger, stronger, faster, etc.

Your words, not mine, and twice as arrogant as anything I have ever said and thought.

I detest the affected snobbery of CMA as much as I think the tattooed tough guy white belt is a tool.

I can't argue with what you said.

Never stopped you before.

Lifting is like requesting more and more troops. But how many troops do you have? And when you become in the habit of relying on sheer number of forces, what happens when you are outnumbered, or simply out manuevered?

Then you understand neither the role of conditioning, nor technique. You want to separate them out and make it into an either or proposition when they are complementary. A tired fighter is not strong, not fast and not technical, and more likely to get injured. Being technical conserves energy, but does not eliminate its use. The reality is that and getting tired happens, even if you are good, and sometimes, forcing it is expedient - and may be the difference between life and death on the oft bandied about "street." Conditioning reinforces your technique, while good technique reduces the energy loss over time.

Train it all. Again, it's a balancing act, but being good is a personal choice.

[PangQuan]

"Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited."
-Koichi Tohei

[Mr Punch]

"Power of mind is infinite while brawn is limited."
-Koichi Tohei

Tohei was wrong, or mistranslated.

The 'extent' of the mind is infinite. As in, there are no boundaries to your imagination. There are very finite boundaries to your mind's power if you are taking power to mean a force that influences other things. Cross those boundaries and you're in the realms of fantasy.

You study a young man's style that is somewhat arrogant .... I study an old man's style that views every foe as being younger, stronger, faster, etc.

How is it a young man's style? Many BJJers and JJJers for that matter roll into their seventies.

It may be the difference between the thinking of old Japanese men who have fought a lot of people in single combat, and old Chinese. The Japanese don't think of their foe or make any assumption until there has been some kind of engagement, some intelligence, some clash... this is zen. The Chinese assume the worst.

Don't forget also, while it's important to respect our elders, many of them have just had a longer time on the planet talking bollocks!

[PangQuan]

"It's not just self defense, it's about...self control, body discipline, and mind discipline...and breath techniques. It involves yoga. It involves meditation. It's an art, not a sport." - Elvis Presley.

[PangQuan]

"Given enough time, any man may master the physical. With enough knowledge, any man may become wise. It is the true warrior who can master both....and surpass the result." --Tien T'ai



"im just having fun here." -- PangQuan

[PangQuan]

im not sure where that translation came from, I have a large compilation of MA quotes in a word file...

I personally took the meaning of power as in a force to drive us to constantly breach our boundaries and limitations. The will of man, if you will.


p.s. thanks tho mat, I will most likely update that quote to reflect your translation.

[Merryprankster]

And Tien T'ai's quotation is closest to what I am getting at. Body, mind and spirit are the holy trinity of fighting. There is nothing mystical or magical about it, and you can train all three without sacrificing your overall fighting skill precisely because the sum of those three is greater than the value of the individual parts. They function in complementary synergy, not as isolated pieces.

Proposed dichotomies are nothing but myths.

[rogue]

Body, mind and spirit are the holy trinity of fighting.

Holy cats, MP cuts to the chase and is right again! MP sums up the meaning of Sanchin and he's not even a karate dude. I don't know how a BJJ fighter learned our secret training method, but now I know why they fight so well.

That synergy is key IMO. You'll rarely if ever have all three in perfect balance but you stand a better chance having one or two of the three fill in the gap of the weak leg.

[Merryprankster]

Thanks rogue, but I hesitate to use shorthand like that because it sounds like mystical bull****.

As long as people understand that those three things are personal choices, and that you can work on them in very real, non-esoteric ways, it's a useful sort of shorthand.

Once people start thinking that there's some kind of something "extra" to it, the value diminishes greatly.

The body is trained through conditioning (stamina, strength, agility, etc)and technique repetition (muscle memory).

The mind is trained through positive visualization, positive self-talk, and technique repetition.

Spirit is something that can definitely be taught, but requires the recognition that you must train for victory like your life depends on it, and fight like you don't care what the outcome is. Simple, but genuinely not easy.