Mantis in Sport Fighting

[TaichiMantis]

[I also posted this on the Mantis Qtly Form...]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I've been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I'm not sure what they use in sanshou.

Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

Also, while I'm on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It's like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can't we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but....

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn't really matter.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training....anyone else feel this way

[Oso]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I've been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I'm not sure what they use in sanshou.

Sanshou uses a boxing glove...12-16 oz.

I think a big misconception about mantis is that it's all 'mantis hooking'
this is not true, imo, and there are plenty of pressing/sealing techniques that could be effective w/o the use of the fingers.


Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

beyond attacks to the eyes, throat and groin there is nothing in any mma ruleset that would disallow any 'mantis' technique.

i don't know that I'd say that it would be so easy to steal someones balance just because they follow through with the kick. generally they are immediately following through with arm attacks and you are not only having to deal with the considerable power these guys are generating (power is power no matter if it's muscularly generated or 'waist generated'...and I'm not sure that is a real distinction anyway.) you also have to worry about the head shots coming at you as you try to steal their balance.

Also, while I'm on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It's like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can't we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but....

anything you do should be usable in any venue...you have to understand and train the rules so that you can be effective within them. If you have won trophies then you were effective...why worry?

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn't really matter.

'fighting' boils down to some basic concepts that should be found in any style.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training....anyone else feel this way

if there is a conflicting message, it's not in the material but how it's being presented.

just my thoughts on the issue...which shouldn't be an issue to start with.

[MightyB]

I take it that you're a student of Master Lee. I personally think he's awesome. I've seen him do some demonstrations with gim technique that are top notch.

One of your Master's friends is Master Chan who teaches Jow Ga and Wing Chun. He had a student named Duncan Duffin who may be in Grand Rapids. He did move to train with Cung Le's team in LA for a while, but he may be back now. He's very good in TCMA... but, he made the transition to do San Shou almost exclusively now. He is a black belt in Judo, has experience in Muay Thai, and BJJ. He has a good and established fight record. He isn't Mantis, but he knows Bung Bo and is a top-notch Jow Ga guy.

Talk to him about some of your issues.

[TaichiMantis]

I take it that you're a student of Master Lee. I personally think he's awesome. I've seen him do some demonstrations with gim technique that are top notch.

One of your Master's friends is Master Chan who teaches Jow Ga and Wing Chun. He had a student named Duncan Duffin who may be in Grand Rapids. He did move to train with Cung Le's team in LA for a while, but he may be back now. He's very good in TCMA... but, he made the transition to do San Shou almost exclusively now. He is a black belt in Judo, has experience in Muay Thai, and BJJ. He has a good and established fight record. He isn't Mantis, but he knows Bung Bo and is a top-notch Jow Ga guy.

Talk to him about some of your issues.

Thanks....it would be interesting to talk to someone who started in TCMA to see if that training has helped them in sport fighting.

Actually, I'm a student of a sifu who was authorized to teach Tai Chi Praying Mantis under the late grandmaster David Cheng of Hawaii. Grandmaster Cheng was a school brother to Grandmaster Lee; both of them were disciples of Chui Chuk Kai who taught TCPM in Vietnam. Our class meets at the Michigan Athletic Club at Burton and Breton on Tues-Thurs. I have met Master Chan, a very gracious man. I introduced myself when I bought my staff from his shop. Master Chan told me about Henry Chung's tournament in Midland. I attended the tournament last year with my sifu and was introduced to Grandmaster Lee and some of his students. I've also seen his demonstrations at Festival. You are right, he truly knows his stuff!

[shirkers1]

[I also posted this on the Mantis Qtly Form...]

Someone should come up with a class on this. Lately I've been watching a lot of UFC reruns on Spike TV. I always wonder what moves, footwork, etc. from mantis could be incorporated in sport fighting, either sanshou or mma. The gloves worn in mma fighting may be more conducive to mantis, I'm not sure what they use in sanshou.

Do any of you watch UFC or other sport fighting and try to analyze technique? It seems that the punches are more muscle and arm generated instead of from the waist or core. Also, the kicks never come back faster than they go out, making it easy to steal someones balance. What about bouncing vs gliding, angle, or circular stepping vs. straight in? Of course you would have to scrutinize the rules to see what is allowed.

Also, while I'm on a rant, what about mantis techniques for point sparring. Even though I have won trophies in it, I really hate karate point sparring; but that is all we have around here. It's like there are two paradigms. One for when you go to tournaments to spar and one when you are actually learning your style. It blows my mind that I am reduced to about three basic techniques when I spar. Why can't we spar using techniques and concepts we supposedly learn through forms? Granted, there is some overlap but....

And finally, would I use any of my Mantis/Shaolin concepts in a street fight? Or does self defense boil down to a few generic concepts and the style doesn't really matter.

It does seem that I receive conflicting messages in my training....anyone else feel this way

Well it's not a matter of coming up with a class for it. Pretty much everything in our line of mantis can be used. Accept for headbutts, small things like holding on to shorts, eye gouges or groin strikes of coarse aren't allowed. But basic striking and throwing is allowed so it would be a matter of training for sport fighting period using mantis tactics and mindset. I think it would go over very well.

As for kicking etc. There is a lot of things I wish some of those guys would do more and do less. As for angles etc It depends on who you're fighting whether you want to stand in front of them or move. You see all the openings and where they could do this or that and you're like "ah let it fly" but it's easier when looking from the outside in. I'd like to see more bump kicks and foot stomps. Way more elbows in close instead of forearm strikes. I realize that these guys aren't in it for the long haul so certain strikes like destructions aren't used as much. Although I think elbows on hook lines to the main arm muscles and leg muscles will end things a lot quicker than some might realize. I'd like to see throws like we do where you just let go of the guy in mid throw causing more damage than holding on to the guy while going down just so you can ground and pound. The only thing with this is a lot of those guys will clinche right away forcing both of you to go down any way. So it's a matter of being able to execute the throw properly and cleanly I guess.

These guys are cross training using what they know works, tai boxing, boxing, jujitsu etc. Until someone comes along and shows a superior striking, throwing, and grappling then that's what they're going to stick with.

Yes mantis is very useful in the street and yes I have used it. Whether they were generic concepts or not isn't the point. If it's something you're training and you use it then that's all that really matters whether it's the bare basic or most advanced. It really depends on who you're training with and how as to whether you're going to be able to use it when it matters.

[mantid1]

Just watched one of those fights last night. I think that if a traditional mantis guy went in there they would have their head handed to them.

Two or three techniques then down on the ground. Most of these guys could take a couple of shots untill they got a hold of the mantis guy.

But this is against people who train to fight. It is a different story defending yourself against the guy on the street who has not trained or has littlle "real" training. Mantis is very effective for that. No doubt about it.

I have said before the only way to know is get a mantis guy in there to find out. If somone would compete in these types of tournaments and get the head handed to them using mantis, that should tell you something.

Out of all of these types of fights has anyone ever heard of a traditioanal mantis guy being a big winner in any of these organiztions. Using Mantis techniques not bjj.

I can tell you one thing. It wont be me in there

[EarthDragon]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

[FightingGorilla]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

EarthDragon,

Thank you for your post. The early UFC battles were really the best (IMHO)... before folks like Senator John McCain (R-AZ) whined about the fights and got them banned on pay-per-view channels. The UFC then came back, restructured, with new rules, under a Nevada ownership, and had a re-surrgence of popularity.

I believe sport fighting has it's place, but still there is a certain reserve, if any rules apply at all. In my opinion, in a life-or-death situation, there would be no rules, so (IMHO) I would like to train for that event, rather than for sport, or for points.

I have studied at a couple different schools, and my most recent Sifu was the closest to original Shaolin Kung Fu as I have found. Many styles are (sort-of) mixed in America nowadays, but sometimes that can be very good. As I saw one poster write, a Sifu can make the combination of his styles his own style, which in effect is what (I think) we should all do.

I have considered searching out a military-trained teacher, wherein the school would offer me the ability to learn to take a punch as well as give a punch back. Many schools are very good on forms, and aerobic excercises, but to me, if you cannot use the art to defend yourself, it isn't much good. Sport fighting is one thing, but there are some techniques that can be learned that would be against the rules in sport fighting, even UFC matches. I found a list of banned strikes or "fouls", etc. for UFC on Wikipedia, that list is here (scroll down when on that page):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimat...g_Championship

This might sound strange, but I am thinking that this list would be a very good place to start if I were to really want to defend myself in a life-and-death scenario. If these actions are too vivid for the UFC, must be they are very effective for really disabling an opponent who would threaten one's life, thus a very good place to start for real-world self-defense.

My first martial arts instructor had a saying at his school, it is common (I think) to many schools... "It is never good to fight with another, but if you must fight...win."

I would prefer to live my life in peace, much like the Gorilla that I take my user name from, but at the same time, having peace within and witout, I would desire to plan to defend my life at all costs. That may be the absolute for many martial artists, and I think ultimately it is, but to me, and IMHO, sport fighting sort of "side-tracks" the harmony portion of life, and actually (in some ways, because of the rules) limits the martial artist.

Control is part of the art, and to train, one must learn to achieve control. But when the adrenalin is flowing, and your life is truly in danger, control would not be an option. Especially if your wife or children's life were on the line as well as your own. Part of the control I have found in life is to stay away from geographical locations that would represent a higher risk of danger to my person. I am always on a personal "higher alert" when traveling through any major city, and I prefer, for my life, to live out in the country, where the population is less, and the control of my life is higher. To me, martial arts can envelope all aspects of my behavior, and part of that behavior is to obtain an inner-peace and harmony. Some arts miss that point, but I have tried (at least on some level) to find harmony through my attention to good will, honor, and respect for fellow man.

Sport fighting has it's place, and some swear by it as a way to hone their skills, and for those I welcome their approach and encourage them to continue on their path. Fulfillment of life comes in various forms, and in many different styles. And I am in no way condemning sport fighting, I think it is awesome. It is just not something I would enter into on my life's path. That is a personal choice for myself, and not a judgement on other's enjoyment of the atheletics.

I have enjoyed this particular thread, and I thought I would add my unique 2 cents to the topic.



FightingGorilla

[WinterPalm]

I rented the UFC 8 I believe: The Brawl in Buffalo. It listed the preliminary fights with "O" winning and a praying mantis fighter winning. Neither of these fights were shown. I am interested in seeing how the fights went with the Praying Mantis guys mentioned. Is there any online video of them?

[FightingGorilla]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

Sorry... just watched UFC # 7... the winner was NOT Joel Sutton... Sutton was one of the alternates for that fight, but the fight was won by Ruas... and the final match in UFC # 7 was between Varlenz & Ruas... the fight was in 1995...

Don't doubt Sutton might have won a UFC match, but it wasn't # 7....


FG

[Three Harmonies]

Gorilla
Interesting. I never went back and looked through the old school vids. Guess I should be careful whos word I take eh?!
Thanks
Jake

[SevenStar]

Sorry... just watched UFC # 7... the winner was NOT Joel Sutton... Sutton was one of the alternates for that fight, but the fight was won by Ruas... and the final match in UFC # 7 was between Varlenz & Ruas... the fight was in 1995...

Don't doubt Sutton might have won a UFC match, but it wasn't # 7....


FG

According to sherdog, he did fight in 7, but he was not a main event. He beat a guy named geza kalman by tko due to a cut. That was sutton's last win. His current record is 2-4-1.

KFM forum member subitai was in that same UFC and won his fight as well.

[shirkers1]

Just watched one of those fights last night. I think that if a traditional mantis guy went in there they would have their head handed to them.

Two or three techniques then down on the ground. Most of these guys could take a couple of shots untill they got a hold of the mantis guy.

But this is against people who train to fight. It is a different story defending yourself against the guy on the street who has not trained or has littlle "real" training. Mantis is very effective for that. No doubt about it.

I have said before the only way to know is get a mantis guy in there to find out. If somone would compete in these types of tournaments and get the head handed to them using mantis, that should tell you something.

Out of all of these types of fights has anyone ever heard of a traditioanal mantis guy being a big winner in any of these organiztions. Using Mantis techniques not bjj.

I can tell you one thing. It wont be me in there

Well look at the tools used. Punching, kicking, throwing, grappling. Mantis excels in everything but modern ground fighting. So why couldn't a mantis guy cross train for that aspect and do well? It just simply has to be done and trained. I made my attempt at getting back into fighting shape and ended up hurting my back again.. I just can't do the road work any more with my back to keep up the stamina needed for that. In the long haul my back can't keep up any more when I push it too hard, I was hoping to get back into fighting shape and enter the cage at some local events here, but it's just not going to happen. I'd love to get a hold of some kid who had the drive to do this and was willing to fight and train him, I know I could make a great competitor out of him in the cage.

[MightyB]

Before you guys go a little too crazy and attempt MMA... try a San Shou event first. Do a google search and watch the fight between Duncan Duffin and Albert Pope. It's all over on-line and you can download it for free if you register @ www.subfighter.com.

Mantis is good... there's no doubt about that... but, it's up to the individual to train the way they want to fight. Is Mantis all inclusive to where it'd do well in MMA? I don't know because honestly I haven't trained in it long enough or hard enough to find out. I do know that I've become a much better all around fighter since I started training Judo and MMA for the last couple of years. I did fight in a San Shou tournament a couple of years ago and got my arse handed to me because I didn't train correctly. I was too traditional for the fight. Now I know that I'll do fine in a San Shou match because experience has taught me what works and doesn't work and I've changed how I train.

[Oso]

Before you guys go a little too crazy and attempt MMA... try a San Shou event first. Do a google search and watch the fight between Duncan Duffin and Albert Pope. It's all over on-line and you can download it for free if you register @ www.subfighter.com.

Mantis is good... there's no doubt about that... but, it's up to the individual to train the way they want to fight. Is Mantis all inclusive to where it'd do well in MMA? I don't know because honestly I haven't trained in it long enough or hard enough to find out. I do know that I've become a much better all around fighter since I started training Judo and MMA for the last couple of years. I did fight in a San Shou tournament a couple of years ago and got my arse handed to me because I didn't train correctly. I was too traditional for the fight. Now I know that I'll do fine in a San Shou match because experience has taught me what works and doesn't work and I've changed how I train.

in your experience, do you feel that you could use mantis and do well (with the exception of ground work) if you utilized training concepts you've learned in judo and mma?