Mantis in Sport Fighting

[mantid1]

Hi Shirkers

I dont think that ground fighting is that new of a concept. In fact if we do some research it probably predates mantis.

I think a mantis guy could do well in that type of fighting. I do think he would have to alter the way it is done traditionally. Which is one thing that I believe the mantis has going for it. From what I have been taught the mantis does not have to be done in the exact same way each time you use a technique. So it is a perfect style to adapt. I think that is more important in the real situation then sitting around talking about jing and where the power comes from. If you are learning a fighting style you should be able to strike with some power and effectivness.

The founder of mantis (wong lang ) who ever that may be, obsorbed and adapted techniques form other styles to make his/their system work. It is still happening today. This is another reason I think a mantis practitioner could do well.


Mighty B

Yep, san shou is the only fighting we do in our school besides the normal two person sets and drills.

But dont get me wrong. I am not saying my school is known for great fighters or that I am an authority on this type of fighting. I just think it is better and have less injuries to students than with the light contact.

We do some of what people call cotuinuous light contact sparring. But I call it by what it really is. Tag. I let them tag to shoulders, chest center line, and legs. It helps with blocking as some coordination and timing. The guys who used to hurt people in the light contact wont do the san shou. Imagine that.


Oso

Just read your post, seems we think the same way

[Oso]

This is the kind of discussion I was hoping to spur. You have to look at the principles behind the moves and stances in the forms and then see how you can adjust them for the ring or for real life attacks in today's world (which is dominated by weapons other than hands and feet).

agreed.

Of course the concept of "winning" in sport fighting is....well....just different.

why do you think that?

there are certainly differences between light contact 'tag' sparring and full contact but the name of the game is control is it not?

I think it's totally beneficial to apply your mind to figuring out how to use what you know in a limited fashion. maybe you can't do some of what you feel is stylistically inherent in you but I just consider it an exercise in application.

[shirkers1]

Hi Shirkers

I dont think that ground fighting is that new of a concept. In fact if we do some research it probably predates mantis.

I think a mantis guy could do well in that type of fighting. I do think he would have to alter the way it is done traditionally. Which is one thing that I believe the mantis has going for it. From what I have been taught the mantis does not have to be done in the exact same way each time you use a technique. So it is a perfect style to adapt. I think that is more important in the real situation then sitting around talking about jing and where the power comes from. If you are learning a fighting style you should be able to strike with some power and effectivness.

I never said it was a new concept. I said "modern ground fighter", these guys train in BJJ etc so you'd have to know how to counter their moves. So at least a limited knowledge of what they have to offer is essential when you're thrown in there with guys who want to go there. Take a guy like chuck, he'd rather stand up then grapple with you, because that is his strength. But if need be he can ground and pound and sprawl to counter going down. He knows he's not a great submission guy so he'd rather stand up. I myself have never been that much of a slouch on the ground using mantis tactics. I've never wrestled in school etc but I can use common sense as to body positioning etc to handle myself just fine. The past few years I started working and looking into BJJ and how they do things and it's helped even more. I still concider myself a stand up fighter though...

The way you've been taught is the same way I've been taught, traditional in forms but a lot more modern when applied.

As for your "sitting around talking about jing" comment I don't know if that was a dig or what but the question was where does the power come from while throwing a strike etc. So that is why I answered the way I did on that subject. I think if you look it clearly says by me that if you "train" the mechanics correctly and not meditate on the earths gravitational pull you'll be fine.

[mantid1]

nope not a dig at all

I just think people try to get to involved with the "where the power comes form". An experienced shotokan guy will probably hit with a straight punch just as hard as a mantis guy. Power generation is fairly simple.

Comment had absolutely nothing to do with you at all.

[shirkers1]

nope not a dig at all

I just think people try to get to involved with the "where the power comes form". An experienced shotokan guy will probably hit with a straight punch just as hard as a mantis guy. Power generation is fairly simple.

Comment had absolutely nothing to do with you at all.

okay, just checking cause it sounded like we were on the same page thought wise up till that point.

[mantis108]

Well, I posted a response on the MQ forum already. I am not going to bring that over here. Rather, I prefer to give another response here. BTW, I just got my first BJJ Gi which is a very nice fit. The reason? No, I am not selling out but I am looking into the handles and chokes that a Gi (simulates someone with a Jacket on the street) can provide.

The major problem for mantis in an UFC type event is 2 folds A) as Oso and others have put it the conditioning. B) Ignorance of the fighting format (ie clinch and the ground).

BTW, I encourage everyone who's into real recordings of actually street fights in America to get their hands on Bumfights or Scraps on DVD. You will realize that a fight is a fight whether or not it's on the street. It's not something that's exclusive to MAist in the ring or in the octagon.

Mantis has Di Gong or ground fighting in it. However, few people focus on that. So forms such as the Di Tanglang is mostly for show if not for "gymnastic" conditioning. Take the most basic sprawl (pa hu) for example, how many people in Mantis understand the principle of it let along drill that? Bridging (upa in BJJ term) in Mantis is basically "Di Feng Jian" (earth wind expanding) but how many people even heard of that?

Finally, the obsession of form base teaching has a strangling hold on Mantis at large. The only remedy IMHO is to either do away with proliferation of forms or balance it out with drill base teaching. Ideally, drill base teaching would be the solution.

Mantis108

[Oso]

Take the most basic sprawl (pa hu) for example, how many people in Mantis understand the principle of it let along drill that? Bridging (upa in BJJ term) in Mantis is basically "Di Feng Jian" (earth wind expanding) but how many people even heard of that?

c'mon dude...don't tease like that.

would love to see you expand upon those terms...maybe an article??????

[EarthDragon]

Is it just me or is mantis 108 an encyclopedic wealth of mantis knowledge... LOL

again just want to point out my last post to comment on mantis not being put to the test in the UFC.... please re-read or you have seen UFC 6 or 7, place your comment here__________

[mantis108]

I have been working on an article about Mantis ground fighting. It's coming along slowly. So I don't know when it will be finished. But then you have given me an idea what to included in it. Thanks

Hi Earth Dragon,

Thanks for the support. I know very little about mantis. I am fortunate enough to have knowledgeable people such as Kevin and others sharing invaluable information with me. In reality, I am more of a large mouth spreading the word that's all. I wouldn't be qualify for being the encyclopedia thing.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[MightyB]

Oso,

In my experience, 7* works fine if you train hard...

I've been practicing the first Jet Yu and Su Fon Che forms a lot lately because I really like those two forms for fight training.

I didn't do to well in the beginning when I first joined the Judo club... but, after I got the basics of Judo down, I was able to start incorporating what I learned in Mantis with Judo. Now I'm a dirty hybrid, but I feel a lot better about things like San Shao. Some examples... I don't like to tangle up on the ground with the straight BJJ guys from Ann Arbor, but they are weak with the basic throwing from Judo so the purer Judo guys actually end up beating the BJJers a lot. I played hands with a Krav guy who was smooth. I've since developed an appreciation for Krav. The x-military combatives guy does hybrid BJJ.

We all share. I've shown some basic Mantis and Chin Na. Mantis is waaaayyyyy better than Judo's Goshin Jitsu. Goshin is similar to Chin Na but IMHO sucks especially if you compare it to 7*.

One thing people need to keep in mind is that I dedicated myself exclusively to 7* for 10 years before I started cross training. I'm not an advocate for "Flavor of the Week" types who randomly switch styles every 6 months because they think they're "correcting some flaw". You have to give yourself time to develop in any style.

I also don't like the trend to try to de-emphasize forms training. Yes you shouldn't obsess with forms... but, if you read my post on the 8 Hard, you'll begin to understand why forms are important to develop as a Mantis player. IMO people who de-emphasize forms really are making excuses for their own lack of knowledge of the system. For example, there was a prominent instructor who tried to remove the Fan Che forms from the "Mantis curriculem" because he didn't think they were mantis. What he didn't realize is that there's a whole series of theories that have been passed down through the generations that describe how to incorporate Fan Che and Mantis for free fighting. I'm writing from memory and I don't speak Cantonese-- "Fan Che Mut, Tong Long Gun" -- spelled phonetically, would be one.

I've never seen Mantis ground fighting. I've never seen anything that's even remotely similar to BJJ or wrestling in the dirt in Mantis. I'd also be curious to see this Mantis ground fighting everyone talks about.

[EarthDragon]

mantis 108, you are too humble... I wish I had one ounce of your humbleness.
I am however driven by ego a character flaw. But I am in commision sales career so I need my ego to survive so it goes both ways.. LOL

[Knifefighter]

Earth Dragon:
Are you saying the techniques Sutton used in his UFC fights were representative of the techniques that mantis fighter would use in a fight?

[EarthDragon]

knife........ I would have to say NO not totally that is. While Joel trained in 8 step for years with dean in Buffalo and then james shyun in SF.
Shyun had him cross train with other martial artists like Cung Lee and tat ma wong and some BJJ and akijitsu players.
One of his daily training excersizes was to push a 55 galon drum filled with water up a hill which he got from a judo BB.

While he did represent 8 step praying mantis in he octagon that arena is more or less on the ground fighitng not the stand up and fight that mantis fighters are more comfortable with. While it is true they stood up and punched and kicked like a mantis fighter does when it got to be too much for his opponent he just tackled him and then the fight was won on the ground.

in a real situation agaisnt a trained fighter we would all like to use our mantis in its flavor 100% of the fight but most of the time this is not always true and you rely on instinct rather than training.

[Willow Palm]

Even on UFC, you have to understand that when there are rules, you have to train to fit them. Unfortunately, these guys are on the "juice" and learning a few basic techniques and trying to perfect them. While that's all good and all, some of the best fights I've seen were in the early years and they didn't last nearly as long. Before the mixed martial arts got big, most of the competitors were strickly using the style they've done for years. I've seen fights where the little guy whooped the big guy because the little guy had better technique, and I'm talking a two hundred pound difference BTW. The great thing (great?) about a street fight is all those techniques that mantis is known work beautifully. That's enough for me. Competition is one thing and can be a terrific benefit to your martial skills, but UFC is about money and ego, which is complete opposite to what I'm after. Though I must admit it's good to hear other mantis practioners are whipping up on some people in the ring.

[Jason Martell]

In ultimate fighting they are not allowed to strike in the back or the back of the head.

Are they allowed to hit the neck in any way?