Mantis in Sport Fighting

[EarthDragon]

Jason, Much has changed in he UFC as far as rules go. Back in the day when the UFC first started out their were only 2 rules....
1. no eye gouging
2. no fish hooking.

it wasnt until much later that they implemeted all these new rules with classes and such. so again when it was just starting out you could do just about anything........

[TaichiMantis]

Jason, Much has changed in he UFC as far as rules go. Back in the day when the UFC first started out their were only 2 rules....
2. no fish hooking...

So does that mean no cutting punches or kicks?

[Oso]

hey man, just getting back to the board after a much needed vacation.

Oso,

In my experience, 7* works fine if you train hard...

I've been practicing the first Jet Yu and Su Fon Che forms a lot lately because I really like those two forms for fight training.

you'll have to translate for me...is 'su fon che' 'small turning wheel' ? and i don't know what 'jet yu' is at all.

I didn't do to well in the beginning when I first joined the Judo club... but, after I got the basics of Judo down, I was able to start incorporating what I learned in Mantis with Judo. Now I'm a dirty hybrid, but I feel a lot better about things like San Shao. Some examples... I don't like to tangle up on the ground with the straight BJJ guys from Ann Arbor, but they are weak with the basic throwing from Judo so the purer Judo guys actually end up beating the BJJers a lot. I played hands with a Krav guy who was smooth. I've since developed an appreciation for Krav. The x-military combatives guy does hybrid BJJ.

good. i'd say that no one would be able to start mixing and matching till after they gained some understanding of what the new thing is all about. also, imo, the longer your total training the less time it takes to assimilate a new method.

We all share. I've shown some basic Mantis and Chin Na. Mantis is waaaayyyyy better than Judo's Goshin Jitsu. Goshin is similar to Chin Na but IMHO sucks especially if you compare it to 7*.

yea, in my jujitsu experiences i've found cma chin na to be better at small and medium joing locking as well.

One thing people need to keep in mind is that I dedicated myself exclusively to 7* for 10 years before I started cross training. I'm not an advocate for "Flavor of the Week" types who randomly switch styles every 6 months because they think they're "correcting some flaw". You have to give yourself time to develop in any style.

right, what I said above.

I also don't like the trend to try to de-emphasize forms training. Yes you shouldn't obsess with forms... but, if you read my post on the 8 Hard, you'll begin to understand why forms are important to develop as a Mantis player. IMO people who de-emphasize forms really are making excuses for their own lack of knowledge of the system. For example, there was a prominent instructor who tried to remove the Fan Che forms from the "Mantis curriculem" because he didn't think they were mantis. What he didn't realize is that there's a whole series of theories that have been passed down through the generations that describe how to incorporate Fan Che and Mantis for free fighting. I'm writing from memory and I don't speak Cantonese-- "Fan Che Mut, Tong Long Gun" -- spelled phonetically, would be one.

i agree. for me the forms are the 'books' with the lessons in them. you have to take the lessons out of the book and do the math problems on the board, as it were, a bunch of times to be able to recall and utilize it.

I've never seen Mantis ground fighting. I've never seen anything that's even remotely similar to BJJ or wrestling in the dirt in Mantis. I'd also be curious to see this Mantis ground fighting everyone talks about.

neither have I.


btw, my girl is from michigan and we'll be in ann arbor the entire week of Thanksgiving....where are you in relation and would you be interested in getting together...or I can brush off my uchi mata and come to a judo club meeting....pm me if you want

[MightyB]

Oso,

I live about 30 minutes West of Ann Arbor in Jackson, MI. PM or email me and I'll give you directions to the Judo Club.

[Oso]

Thanks. Will do. My girl has a bunch of friends that train some sort of Shaolin with a teacher named "Mr. G". I'll be visiting them as well. Ever heard of him?

[MightyB]

I don't know Mr. G. One of the guys who works for me has a female roomate who's been training with Mr. G.

I don't know if he's legit... I did see a kid swinging a Dao pretty badly in a parade while wearing a karate outfit. If he's studying with G... it doesn't look good.

The only Kung Fu guy I know of from Ann Arbor is Victor Chow who teaches Bagua, Xing Yi, and Tai Chi.

[EarthDragon]

quick question. seems like those who study bagua always seem to cross it with xingyi and taichi. now I know the whole circle/linear approach but just wondering if these complement each other so well that if you do one you must do the other.

also doesnt bagua and xingyi have enough information in of themselves to keep you busy for say 20 years?

the fighting aspect of taichi alone takes a lifetime to master so why would one mix two other styles with it to complete themselves?

anyone?

[BeiTangLang]

Just a guess mind you;

While I am not sure the reasons for training bagua & taichi at the same time, learning xingyi as a "counterpoint" seems to be not such a bad idea....taking the yin with the yang so to speak.

~BTL

-added after research-

Here is a very good explanation from Lu Hung-Bin (deceased) quoted from an interview several years back (I cannot remember the original publisher);

""Taijiquan is growing in popularity to*day in America. You seem to feel that the other two styles, Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-I Chuan are also necessary to round out a student’s education. Why is this?

"Anyone who really wants to live a long life and be happy by practicing internal arts must learn to practice all three of the internal martial arts. Each one has some*thing special offer , and collectively they are the tops for health, longevity and self-protection.

When you practice Taijiquan it devel*ops the mind power, helps you to relax in stressful situations and improves Qi flow. When you practice Pa Kua Chang its stimu*lates the acupuncture meridians and de*velops tendon, ligament and muscular power. Hsing-I Chuan is for balancing and harmonizing your internal organs. The three used together will supply you with all that you need.""

[EarthDragon]

thanks Bei, wow that totally answers my question.

I have heard that thelinear forms in baugua not the circle walking align the meridians. is this true? and how does it more so then other styles?

[BeiTangLang]

thanks Bei, wow that totally answers my question.

I have heard that thelinear forms in baugua not the circle walking align the meridians. is this true? and how does it more so then other styles?

The kfm internal arts forum would be the better place to ask I think,...speaking of which, better get back on topic, I'd hate to be accused of hijacking, being a mod & all.
~BTL

[EarthDragon]

LOL what are you thinking bei? in some countries you can get beheaded for less. OK now back to the topic

[SevenStar]

Take a guy like chuck, he'd rather stand up then grapple with you, because that is his strength. But if need be he can ground and pound and sprawl to counter going down. He knows he's not a great submission guy so he'd rather stand up.

Actually, chuck is great at submission. He's wrestled all his life - was division 1 in college - and has been doing bjj for 7 years.

[FightingGorilla]

taichimantis,
actully my friend and kung fu brother Joel Sutton whom I used to train with in Buffalo and in SF entered the UFC #6 representing 8 step praying mantis and yes taught by James Shyun as an alternative and won.

He was then invited back into UFC#7 in Buffalo NY as a main event and also won........ it was deemed the bloodiest UFC match in history after joel head butted the guy, split his forhead open and stuck his thumbs in the skin and ripped it open. you can still rent the Buffalo fight at blockbuster. and read about it on our news clippings button on our website www.eightstep.com

He was the first mantis style practioner to enter the old UFC and proved himself and our style worthy of MMA.

EarthDragon,

Thank you for your post. The early UFC battles were really the best (IMHO)... before folks like Senator John McCain (R-AZ) whined about the fights and got them banned on pay-per-view channels. The UFC then came back, restructured, with new rules, under a Nevada ownership, and had a re-surrgence of popularity.

I believe sport fighting has it's place, but still there is a certain reserve, if any rules apply at all. In my opinion, in a life-or-death situation, there would be no rules, so (IMHO) I would like to train for that event, rather than for sport, or for points.

I have studied at a couple different schools, and my most recent Sifu was the closest to original Shaolin Kung Fu as I have found. Many styles are (sort-of) mixed in America nowadays, but sometimes that can be very good. As I saw one poster write, a Sifu can make the combination of his styles his own style, which in effect is what (I think) we should all do.

I have considered searching out a military-trained teacher, wherein the school would offer me the ability to learn to take a punch as well as give a punch back. Many schools are very good on forms, and aerobic excercises, but to me, if you cannot use the art to defend yourself, it isn't much good. Sport fighting is one thing, but there are some techniques that can be learned that would be against the rules in sport fighting, even UFC matches. I found a list of banned strikes or "fouls", etc. for UFC on Wikipedia, that list is here (scroll down when on that page):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimat...g_Championship

This might sound strange, but I am thinking that this list would be a very good place to start if I were to really want to defend myself in a life-and-death scenario. If these actions are too vivid for the UFC, must be they are very effective for really disabling an opponent who would threaten one's life, thus a very good place to start for real-world self-defense.

My first martial arts instructor had a saying at his school, it is common (I think) to many schools... "It is never good to fight with another, but if you must fight...win."

I would prefer to live my life in peace, much like the Gorilla that I take my user name from, but at the same time, having peace within and witout, I would desire to plan to defend my life at all costs. That may be the absolute for many martial artists, and I think ultimately it is, but to me, and IMHO, sport fighting sort of "side-tracks" the harmony portion of life, and actually (in some ways, because of the rules) limits the martial artist.

Control is part of the art, and to train, one must learn to achieve control. But when the adrenalin is flowing, and your life is truly in danger, control would not be an option. Especially if your wife or children's life were on the line as well as your own. Part of the control I have found in life is to stay away from geographical locations that would represent a higher risk of danger to my person. I am always on a personal "higher alert" when traveling through any major city, and I prefer, for my life, to live out in the country, where the population is less, and the control of my life is higher. To me, martial arts can envelope all aspects of my behavior, and part of that behavior is to obtain an inner-peace and harmony. Some arts miss that point, but I have tried (at least on some level) to find harmony through my attention to good will, honor, and respect for fellow man.

Sport fighting has it's place, and some swear by it as a way to hone their skills, and for those I welcome their approach and encourage them to continue on their path. Fulfillment of life comes in various forms, and in many different styles. And I am in no way condemning sport fighting, I think it is awesome. It is just not something I would enter into on my life's path. That is a personal choice for myself, and not a judgement on other's enjoyment of the atheletics.

I have enjoyed this particular thread, and I thought I would add my unique 2 cents to the topic.



FightingGorilla

[WinterPalm]

I rented the UFC 8 I believe: The Brawl in Buffalo. It listed the preliminary fights with "O" winning and a praying mantis fighter winning. Neither of these fights were shown. I am interested in seeing how the fights went with the Praying Mantis guys mentioned. Is there any online video of them?

[Ronin BaBu]

Don't worry, I'm going to get on the Ultimate Fighter show, and win that, then go into the UFC and get title shot (of course winning it). All the while I'll be representing 8 step, showing everyone that traditional martial arts are still strong and can stand up to these modern combat arts.
So keep an eye out, not this upcoming season, but maybe the next.