Northern Martial Arts versus Southern Martial Arts

[TenTigers]

Congratulations to Vasquez on the birth of his son, Mega_Fist!
He is a (cow) chip off the old Block(head) !
Nice to see he is continuing the dynasty.
A new poster boy for Pro Choice and Planned Parenthood

[gfx]

My mate Andy (Judo grandmaster) told me that in the north they ONLY use kicks and there are no hand techniques. I am guessing that means that in the south they only use hands and there are no kicks.

Your friend is wrong.

Most northern styles rarely execute high kicks, the high kicks you see in forms are for practicing range of movements. When they do execute high kicks, it's when they have you controlled with their hands, then the kick comes out.

It's false to say that northern styles takes longer to apply than southern. How can a style that is taught in military takes a long time to learn? Soldiers need to be combat ready as soon as possible, they don't have 10 years to master anything, they have maybe a few months max. Any MA taught properly should produce competent fighters within a short range of time ( yes, that includes taiji ). Mastery of the more complex theories will take time, but that's true for anything.

You must remember that most northern arts like Baji, XingYi, Pigua, Fanzi, ChuoJiao, Cha, Hua..etc ARE the working people's art. They were passed on in rural areas by farmers of the yellow plains. Even taiji was passed on for a long time in the farmer village Chen JiaGou before it became as wide spread as it is today. Where do the soldiers came from? Farmers. What do the soldiers do when they retire? Farming. This is true even today in China.

[Mulong]

Pardon GFX,

Not certain if you are referring to my comments or not? When I mention military, I was referring to the use of armor, especially styles that go back to the Song Dynasty.

Indeed, northern styles don’t take longer per say, then southern styles; however, we must look at the intricacy within certain northern styles, i.e., fanziyingzhaoquan, liuhetanglangquan, etc., possess very intricate da (strike) notions, which takes time to master.

However, you mention a few styles here that have roots in military, but were transmitted to peasant; for example, a military officer, Hua, Zongqi passed his knowledge of jiaziquan to the peasants of Guanxian County, Shandong Province. Then, Hua invited his classmate Cha, Yuanyi to assist him in transmitting the art of jiaziquan to this community. In time this art would be divided into two styles, carrying the surname of their respected Shifu, i.e., huaquan and chaquan.

Then you have the case Chen shi taijiquan, which was originally transmitted by Chen, Wangting, who was an officer under the Ming Dynasty and was greatly influence by General Qi, Jiguang, who author a manual on military fighting arts.

Indeed, you are right- warriors, traditionally emerge as farmers and at the end of their military lives they return home to harvest the crops; this cycle still continues to this day in age through out numerous societies.

However, because the nature being of a farmer is waiting for harvest- it gave them the opportunity to developed intricate style, because time was on their side, not like styles like yongchunquan, which was designed to learn quickly, i.e., less lu, etc., because the practitioners were traveling actors.

However, the actual problem here is - nothing in Chinese martial arts can be actually stereotyped; hence, describing one style may not work for the next one.

[BAI HE]

The answer is simple. The better "gong-fu" man wins. The method is really secondary. I study the Internal Arts and have for some time, I don't really think it would give me any advantage over a superior "external" boxer. I may be a better "boxer" beacuase I work hard and have a good method, but the fact remains is that there are "external" and "internal" boxers that are so much better than I.

What I have seen in CMA? There are techniques and counters that run through all arts. In my Bagua we have some Mantis hand, a ton of Shuai Jao and some Pheonix eye fist. No one re-invented the wheel, they just changed training
according to emphasis.

[gfx]

I competely agree with you Baihe and Mulong.

The point I was trying to make was that don't stereotype other styles of martial arts based on such misinformation as mentioned in posts before. I'm trying to bring more information to the other posters so that they may think for themself and try to seek out more information about this themselves.

I was also in the same boat when I was learning southern arts, and was exposed to the "northern is fancy kicks" or "northern is advanced, takes a long time to learn" mentality.

[SimonM]

Neither is better imho. With a good teacher both northern and southern arts can be very effective. If you like Shuai Jiao you must not discount the northern arts.

I personally have trained mostly in Hei Long (guess which province that one originated in), and two southern styles: Hung Gar and Wing Chun. And I like the fusion of north and south this gives me.

[SimonM]

Comparitively speaking, southern arts are only known in their immediate area. Go to China, and ask them about WingChun and CaiLiFuo, they'll say "who?".

This is actually pretty true. When I mention Hung Gar usually I just get blank looks until I say "the style that Wong Fei Hung did" at which point they go "Ooooohhhh! Wong Fei Hung!" and I've given up trying to explain WC. I tried showing people the Siu Lim Tao for a while to describe it but they mostly thought it was a form of Qigong because I didn't move around at all.

[SimonM]

My mate Andy (Judo grandmaster) told me that in the north they ONLY use kicks and there are no hand techniques. I am guessing that means that in the south they only use hands and there are no kicks.

Bullcr@p!

Troll dirt.

Bollox.

On both counts. There are many hand techniques in the North and many kicking techniques in the south. No offense but if your "mate Andy (Judo grandmaster)" is not just a figment of your imagination (I believe he probably is) he is an ignorant fool and should shut his trap about stuff he has no understanding of.

[Mulong]

Certainly a good Shifu makes the style valid!

Personally, my foundation is southern based styles; however, within the past six years I took a left turn and started to practice northern based style. I quickly noticed the whole kicking (ti) notion was simply talk.

Indeed, some advance taolu (set way) possess tengkong bailian (jump space swing continuous/outside crescent), i.e., chaquan, or xuanzi (tornado center/butterfly kick), i.e., fanziyingzhaoquan. However, by the norm they all use the standard tantui (spring leg/snap kick). On the other hand there is chuojiao, which is a truly a kicking art, which possess unique kicks, but they aren’t high per say either.

Therefore, the only major difference between northern and southern maybe the way you play it. Borrowing from music, the theory of:

Legato: Smooth and connected
Staccato: Short and detached

Hence, legato can be perceived as fluid-long movements, e.g., chaquan; therefore, staccato can be perceived as solid-short movements, e.g., hongjiaquan. However, Chinese martial art doesn’t play by its own rule; you have northern style like bajiquan, which uses staccato and southern style like cailifoquan which uses legato; crap!

[SimonM]

Or you could just summarize:

The North/South distinction is largely stereotypical and has little to do with the reality of technique beyond a few generalized (and often violated) principles on each side.

[Mulong]

Very true SimonM!

Personally, hate talking about Chinese martial arts to laypersons or even beginners, because it is to intricate to be explained in a few sentences, because there is always a “but,” somewhere in the explanation.

[David Jamieson]

it all melds together.

north/south/east/west/kicking/punching/stopping/crushing/drilling/pounding/grinding/stomping/smashing and so on and so on.

You will only be limited by your own actual experience.

the thing about kungfu is that you have to do it to know what it is. And when you do it long enough, you'll know what it is and where you are capable and where you are limited. Maintain your capability, work on your limitation and you will cojtinue to strive towards kungfu.

btw and fwiw, these distinctions are common and are intended to provide verbiage for total newbs, hence the whole north/south thing. Mostly it's an idea with no really strong foundations with a few exceptions in regards to principle use in a given style.

One could also make teh north / south equation in regards to china's communism vs nationalism.

mao tse tung vs sun yat sen and so on.

the divisions are just indicators to a starting point. Once you're walking it, you're walking it and there's just a big empty jug to fill with nourishment.

[Fu-Pow]

Therefore, the only major difference between northern and southern maybe the way you play it. Borrowing from music, the theory of:

Legato: Smooth and connected
Staccato: Short and detached

Nice analogy. As a musician myself its easy to understand.

Hence, legato can be perceived as fluid-long movements, e.g., chaquan; therefore, staccato can be perceived as solid-short movements, e.g., hongjiaquan. However, Chinese martial art doesn’t play by its own rule; you have northern style like bajiquan, which uses staccato and southern style like cailifoquan which uses legato; crap!

Except Choy Lay Fut is a long staccato style. Where as Taiji is a long connected style.

[Mulong]

Fu-Pow,

Cailifoquan, has a lovely legato flavor compare to hongjiaquan or zhoujiaquan, which are so staccato in nature. However, what may differ between cailifoquan from beishiquan (northern style boxing), is the use of angles; most northern styles stay within a straight line, excluding baguazhang.

[Ben Gash]

I always find musical analogies good as well. Maybe it's because it's a technical artform.