Trouble Using Deflections

[Joseph]

Hey Everyone. This is my first time posting on this board. I am a 1 1/2 year Jun Fan/JKD practitioner. I know there's a JKD forum here, but I figured I'd ask you Wing Chun folk this question. Whenever I perform tan sao to deflect a straight punch, my tan sao always seems weak, and ends up collapsing laterally (e.g., right tan being pushed left). The way i perform tan sao is wrist about neck level, elbow 1-1 1/2 fist lengths from the body, upper arm parrallel to the ground, forearm extended about 135 degrees in relation to my upper arm, and fingers straight and in line with my forearm. I try to aim the tan sao towards my opponents throat (his centerline), but it seems if they throw anything but a wing chun straight punch, it simply will not work. I am only 5' 6" and 135lbs., so maybe the height difference (most of the people i train with are taller) makes a difference? (their strike is usually aimed at my nose) Maybe my angles off? And at what point should you convert tan sao to bil sao instead? Also, I see tan sao very commonly used against slightly rounded punches on the inside of the strike. How does this work so that the punch doesn't just crash your tan sao inwards? How can the tan be strengthened? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Mortal1]

You need to pivot your waste while striking with the other hand. Your tansau should not be pointing at your opponents neck. It should be pointed outward and away. As should some other blocks. This gets your opponent off balance and allows you waste power in your punch.

When you start the block it might point at your opponents neck. Then it should sweep subtly outward.

Let me know how it works.

[45degree fist]

I mainly use a tan sao for clearing space or trying to regain my lines in close range.

I know other people use it as an interception. Ive seen it work sometimes, Ive also seen it fail the same if not more.

maybe your using your tan sao in the wrong place.

I agree with mortal1 about not having it placed at opponent throat or centerline.

It should go lil past their shoulder and your punch should be on their centerline.

[couch]

I recall another thread where a lot of people got into an argument about Tan vs. Biu/Bil Sao against a round punch.

First, and according to "my" family of wing chun, Tan means dispersing. So I mainly use it for the straight punch or a very tight round punch. The elbow guides the motion and pushes the end weapon (open hand in this case) towards my opponent's centreline.

Now, I noticed that you said that it collapses when an opponent is punching with anything other than the straight punch, ie: round punch. I believe this is happening for two reasons...the Tan Sau that you are performing is too much at an angle and is collapsing...I also believe that it might not be used in the right context. If someone with biceps and shoulders as big as your head throws a round punch...even if it's a tight one will collapse the Tan. I don't believe it's meant for this type of defense.

I do however recommend stepping in the cut off the distance and using a Biu/Bil sau type motion. What this will do is stop the attack before it reached maximum power...something the Tan can't do...unless it's stretched WAY out...and the way we do things is that is a no-no because you're breaking structure. Motions can be adapted for the situation, but the structure must remain the same.

Take what I say for what it is and if you think it's poo poo, then so be it!

Kenton Sefcik

[stonecrusher69]

If the tan sao is not working your probably using it wrong as stated.I would have to see how your using it to fix it.Ask your sifu I'm sure he will be able to fix it real fast.Also, you can use fook sao ,or some other technique.

[Joseph]

The sweeping outwards motion, i'll have to try that. We use it in one of our block and counter sets (basically drills of application). We tan sao a lead straight (thrown boxing style, as we live in the west and that's most likely what you'll see) and pak sao the attachment simultaneously hitting (pak da). I know people are supposed to use what works for them, but i figure i couldn't a punch to "work for me" a few years ago. The more I can get to work, the better off I'll be. I'll try using more waist rotation (to increase the difference in angle, I'm assuming). I'll let you all know how it works out. Thanks again!!

[Matrix]

I try to aim the tan sao towards my opponents throat (his centerline),.

More importantly where is your centerline?

The way i perform tan sao is wrist about neck level, elbow 1-1 1/2 fist lengths from the body, upper arm parrallel to the ground, forearm extended about 135 degrees in relation to my upper arm, and fingers straight and in line with my forearm.

Tan Sao has a range, but I think that based on your description and the fact that you are 5' 6", tells we that you may be going too high. I also think that you need to be more concerned about your elbow ( as opposed to the wrist) and sinking it while driving forward, and less of an upward direction. The fact that your "upper arm' is parallel to the ground seems to indicate this. You have lost your structure. Besides, how can your upper arm be parallel to the ground and your elbow still be 1.5 fist lengths from your body?
I think you're not using the right tool for the job.

The way to "strengthen" the tan is to maintain the naturely strong structure of the tan sau. Sorry if that sounds circular in nature, but once the structure is broken the strength is lost. It's biomechanics.

[lawrenceofidaho]

Whenever I perform tan sao to deflect a straight punch, my tan sao always seems weak, and ends up collapsing laterally (e.g., right tan being pushed left). The way i perform tan sao is wrist about neck level, elbow 1-1 1/2 fist lengths from the body, upper arm parrallel to the ground, forearm extended about 135 degrees in relation to my upper arm, and fingers straight and in line with my forearm. I try to aim the tan sao towards my opponents throat (his centerline), but it seems if they throw anything but a wing chun straight punch, it simply will not work. I am only 5' 6" and 135lbs., so maybe the height difference (most of the people i train with are taller) makes a difference? (their strike is usually aimed at my nose) Maybe my angles off? And at what point should you convert tan sao to bil sao instead? Also, I see tan sao very commonly used against slightly rounded punches on the inside of the strike. How does this work so that the punch doesn't just crash your tan sao inwards? How can the tan be strengthened? Any help would be greatly appreciated.

The picture posted by 45 degree fist illustrates some truly functional angles of the defending arm and counter-punching arm in relation to your opponent (i.e.- defensive arm moving outside of the opponent's shoulder plane while the counter punch blasts the centerline).

There will be a bit of difference between the biu defense, and the tan defense, but experiment with both and see what happens.

Couch,

I am a bit confused by your descriptions.......

Is there any kind of picture you can post which might help clarify what you are trying to describe (not unlike what 45 degree fist did?)

-Lawrence

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Joseph,
I used to be really concerned with all the angles and exact positions of elbows and wrists but it just got more confusing for me and the whole idea of wing chun is simplicity.

In an ideal situation, you want your punch landing on centre not your blocking/dispersing hand.

I think at first it's great to think about all the specifics of your techniques. That's how we learn what their downfalls or limitations are. But at a certain point, everyone has to remember that the actual point is the punch and I think maybe you should concentrate on landing the punch and you'll do -fill in technique here- properly. Think of the punch and not the techniques as much and that may help things.

J

[Matrix]

I used to be really concerned with all the angles and exact positions of elbows and wrists but it just got more confusing for me and the whole idea of wing chun is simplicity.

Like I said, there are ranges of motion, but once you violate the structure of the tan sao, it's weak. You have already developed the sensitivity it takes to know when to change. Joseph does not seem to have that down yet. In the beginning alot of this stuff is confusing. It seems simple and yet there are complexities. We must all struggle through this dicotomy and find it for ourselves. It's more about feeling the specifics of the technique than thinking about them. Thinking too much adds to the confusion.

I hope all is well.

[Jeff Bussey]

Hey Bill,
All is good.
Haven't been into the club for a while, but if you could pass on my congrats to Dennis for me that'd be cool.
Hope everything is going well on your end.

J

[Airdrawndagger]

If someone is throwing a round punch at my face with their right hand then some times I will bong with my left shifting to my right.
Depending on the energy of the punch I can collapse (a little)my bong bringing him closer for a straight punch to the center or his face.
Or pin the punching hand with my left elbow while punching with my right.

As for bil sau or tan sau- biu sau is better for jamming higher attacks while tan is better for dispersing lower attacks. Tan sau gets weeker the higher you raise it but it is a linear defense so inorder to stop a round attack with a linear defense you need to position the tan so it is deflecting the energy almost head on. Meaning you want to deflect the round punch near the wrist/forarm area with the wrist/forarm of your tan so you turn into the attack with the tan sau.
Alot of times the tan will not be able to handle the power of this type of attack so if you do a tan, you would probably be better off rolling into a bong after you have intercepted the attack.

Another option is to do a higher fook sau inside the elbow of the punching arm. This can also be considered to be a variation of a biu sau.
If someone throws a right round punch I will apply forward energy with a left indoor fook sau to his inside elbow, jamming the punch midway through the attack. You can simutaneously attack the the right hand with your choice of weapon, chop, punch, biljee, elbow, etc...

[negativecr33p]

I dunno. If I were to block a round punch, ideally I would want to shift towards it, tan sao, and punch the dudes face at the same time. If I were blocking a straight boxer's punch I still would shift if I were to use tan.

[wei wu wei]

Tan sao, or any other structure for that matter, arises inadvertently when your attack is thwarted. Your intention is always to hit using the most efficient line. Only when the line is obstructed with your opponent's attempt to counter attack, does your structure change momentarily.

[Matrix]

Hope everything is going well on your end.

Hey Jeff, All is well. I'll tell D. that the g-unit offers his condolences..... I mean congraulations.