Announcement

[mantis108]

I always value and appreciate your honest opinions. Also I thank you for all your supports, my friend. Yes, we do not have to agree at every turn.

I understand where you are coming from. You are right that we have a lot of problems with the traditional family value almost totally gone. Perhaps TCMA could help people to revisit that value. I am not against that at all. In fact, I think we need to promote that. But I am against the favoritism and elitism that is what discipleship is about IMHO. Personally, I think they are 2 different issues.

It is my intention to emphasize the point that progress in and application of knowledge of any field should not be compromised by any mean regardless of the justification of the imposed limitation providing that common good of the community and society is not at peril. I may be naive to think that connection between transmittion of knowledge and traditional value is trivial. But I will not regret that I have taken the path where I will respectfully cut down illusions of any diety or buddha between the truth and I.

Warm regards

Robert

PS Oso, thanks. I am glad that you see my point.

[Three Harmonies]

As Robert already stated, secrets, special lessons, societies, etc. etc. are all ways of holding something over someone elses head. Silly in the end. Great post Robert.
Jake

[-N-]

If he is a disciple and a lineage holder hopeful, I don't think he will be publishing and/or hosting non partisan activities which reach out to and benefit more people than we could imagine.

Robert,

The two are not mutually exclusive

take care,
N.

[-N-]

Robert,

Slavery, elitism, favoritism, secrecy, and control are not elements of real discipleship. But there are those who misuse the idea of discipleship to rationalize their use of these negative elements.

take care,
N.

[German Bai Lung]

To name the worst posibility doesn´t mean that a thing is in general bad. In fact you can find everytime a dark side (like: if tradition stands over progress, we might have no light but sure milions wouldn´t suffer the A-Bomb). But this will bring us nowhere.

It´s a good and healthy relationship established in TCMA since a long time. And I see no good arguments to finish with terms like students and disciple. Saying this: when I wrote to Sifu Lee I always wrote: your student. I think thats part of a moderate behaviour.
Anyway: for a healthy family it is necessary to have different relationships. There can´t be only number one son and Daughters. A teacher and father needs disciples to depend on. He needs help in many situations. (I know what I am talking about!) This help he can´t get from anyone with the same intention. But how to decide which students will become disciples and which not? Normally it isn´t the best looking female student ... It should be the students with the most will to train and to give their heart to the art! Right? Also a noticeable difference in your relationship between your students will give you a way af motivate students to go in your wanted direction. There should be many other motivations too, of course.

Yes, there are a lot of teacher and master and disciples who misuse this structure and this sensible construct of relationsship. Thats bad. And we all should do our best to keep it right and save it for the next generations.
A tradition lost is no longer a tradition. And that didn´t mean it should/could not change. People who knows me, read some post of mine, are aware of the fact, that I didn´t want a rigid MA-System. But changes must be smart and useful and not only because one wants to break out a system. That will bring you nowhere.

Sorry for my bad english some more time. Wish I could write in german so everyone could really understand what I think.

At least one point to Sifu Cottrells announcement: it is not unnecessary to point out the clear relationship between him and Sifu Lai. I can´t understand the one who said: nice, but you mustn´t tell us that, we all are just students!
Yes of course, it´s good to see yourself just as student BUT it is a need of politeness and good relationship between a MA family to be honest with your position inside the family. Not because of the Forum Members, but because of the desciples, elder Brothers and sisters etc. It´s another think to judge that ...

[mantis108]

I mean no disrespect to anyone in this debate. I am not judging what others do. I am just stating the reason that I feel all this discipleship thing is not my cup of tea. That's all. BTW, I am mostly speaking in general terms not necessarily taking into account Sifu Cottrell's case. I believe there should be a Caveat Emptor with TCMA in general. So that those who are going into it will be prepared.

I am sure Sifu Cottrell has his reasons to clarify his relationship with his teacher and the immediate Kung Fu family. It is between him and them. It need not my or anyone else approval. But at the same time since this is on a public forum, I once again being the big mouth as usual (small puppy barks loude that can't be helped )and perhaps inadvertently making the matter worst. For that, I am truely sorry. So I will leave it at that.

If indeed the discipleship works flawlessly in your families, then more power to you. I have no qualms about that. I Just don't feel that it empowers Kung Fu as a whole in the long run.

Sincerely,

Robert

[-N-]

I am sure Sifu Cottrell has his reasons to clarify his relationship with his teacher and the immediate Kung Fu family. It is between him and them. It need not my or anyone else approval.

Robert,

Thank you for those thoughts. Really, the immediate family has not made any negative statements regarding Sifu Cottrell. He *is* part of the family, and you know how family things work. Sifu Cottrell has given a clarification. It is nothing more, and nothing less.

Any time a family member, kung fu or otherwise, sees right to take such an action, the entire family is happy for that member and supports him in his action. Clarification and commotion aside, nothing changes Sifu Cottrell's generous contributions to the Mantis community. Nothing changes his dedication to open exchange and sharing of knowledge.

Family matters are just that. Those who know, know. Beyond that, the issue can be considered resolved with no ill will among any of the members.

N.

[MantisCool]

In my opinion. whether Sifu Cottrell is a disciple or just student of Brendan Lai is for Brendan to decide only not anyone else. Has anyone heard Brendan saying that Sifu Cottrell is only a student and not a disciple?

My Sigung, WKH has said whether or not a person has gone through a tea ceremony, they received the same training.

I and my seniors dont call my sifu, "sifu". His name is Wong Pak Chong so we called him "Brother Chong" but the junior all call him Sifu. When we talk to others, he is our sifu and we are his disciples.

[bungbukuen]

I do not no get it? If Sifu Cotrell is not a disciple, then who said he was and why?

[-N-]

Bungbukuen,

It is stated in the announcement, and it is resolved.

N.

[bungbukuen]

Not trying to start any trouble. I know Sifu Cottrell is very active in the community. Call me naive but I still do not understand. If he is not a disciple then why did he say he was?

[mantid1]

If you really want to know send cotrell a pm or email. You could even call. I believe his number is on his web site.

They best way to find out about someone is to ask them personlaly. Not on a forum.

I think this thread has lived out its life and should be locked down.

[lost mantis]

How much of history has been rewritten by "scholars" who committed their own versions to record and by default accomplished an account that survives the actual happennings of truth?

If there was a persistently told "story" without any refute - does it not eventually become part of the popular record?

Elitism and politics aside, I believe the Lai Family is only trying to prevent further confusion.

Sifu Cottrell does a great service in clarifying and I applaud his graciousness in this matter.

To those of you that wonder why its a situation at all-
If I finish a summer course at Stanford University, can I put on my resume that I was a Graduate of Stanford with a Masters in Law? I use an extreme example here to assist comprehension but my point is that we should not hold lightly what effects labels have in perception.

[shirkers1]

To those of you that wonder why its a situation at all-
If I finish a summer course at Stanford University, can I put on my resume that I was a Graduate of Stanford with a Masters in Law? I use an extreme example here to assist comprehension but my point is that we should not hold lightly what effects labels have in perception.

good point..


I can't let robert have all the fun... I'll take some of the heat off of him...

I'm probably one of the worst cats at this whole mr this, sifu that, sir yes sir, blah blah blah. My teacher said "I'm not your sifu, or your master or any of that crap" "I do what I do and that's it".. So I call him mike, that may make him look bad in front of others or with me in my habit of calling others by their name make him look bad as well or disrespectful towards those who are use to being called certain things. That is not the intention at all. That is just how we recognize each other. Does that mean I have less respect for him because I call him by his name? I think not. Same goes for any one else....

This whole idea of the student who shows more and gives more should receive more is kind of touchy with me as well. If the student is "capable" of learning then he should be taught. If that student is willing to give his best effort and time then he should be rewarded with nothing less than all of what that teacher has to offer. I mean who is getting their "lessons" for free out there any way? Very few if any.

I compare it to the workplace.. You have people doing less work or the same amount of work getting more money only because they have their tongue up their bosses ass. So that doesn't sit well with me if I'm doing harder work, or more work but refuse to kiss ass I don't get the rewards...

[-N-]

Shirkers1, Lost Mantis,

Might be better to post the "philosophy of discipleship" comments to the great thread started by AmericanMantis:

http://forum.kungfumagazine.com/foru...ad.php?t=38635

Somehow that one keeps bumping to the top.

Shirkers1, re your teacher's attitude... actually I know some other WHF line people that are exactly that way.

N.