Secrecy and Discipleship in America

[Oso]

RAOFLMAO....yea, right.

I had a 'come to jesus' meeting last month...might lose one or two but they are people who are consistantly late (as much as 15-20 days) with monthly tuition...hate to lose anyone but, you know, I just signed another annual lease...and I've been sweating the 1st for 12 months now and it's making me insane...not going to do it anymore.

[ngokfei]

have read this same topic over theyears on many forums.

So what are these secrets?

Its the information age, its out there if you look.

don't look down on these non chinese who can read and speak. Hey I'm one of them and it was hard work. I used to be the one pestering the my sifu, what does this mean etc. and it was quite annoying as I am feeling now with all the request from my training brothers to give them translastions.

hey just buckle down and if its important to you then pick up the dictionary.


mantid1
you doing a great service by providing training for thefinancially challenged. This is rare even in the "old days" all the famous teachers taught for money or were family members. Alot worked in the teachers business for no pay in exchange for lessons. I've got a few students who do my mowing and landscapping in exchange for lessons. Value in value out.

Also it has to do with how much you put in the "lineage holder/member" topic. It doesn't affect a person's skills. I know this up front. been thrown out/"suspended" from my teacher's school many times. Now he's still my sifu but I don't live off his name. I have my own school that teaches my method. I give face to all my sifu's . Lineage holder is a very stressful position. You can have it.

Making money, how about making a living. If I wanted to be poor then i'd not work. Its great to get paid doing something you enjoy.

finding a teacher is onething but finding a deserving student is another.

peace.

[mantid1]

youknowwho

You know What? I think you are right. I probably would pay a student to learn from me if they were dedicated to learning the material and becoming a better person. Only if I thoght they would treat me as a human being after it was all over. That even seems to be to much to expect anymore.

I probably will end up paying someone to learn everthing. When my kids turn 16 and need money to pay for insurance, cars, college....etc. Lets just hope they have the fire. Times like this I wish my kung fu brothers were closer to help fan the flames in them.

Have a good day.

[-N-]

YouKnowWho, Mantid1,

It is good to see people that understand this.

N.

[Americanmantis]

Hi Robert,

Good to hear from you too.

Starting "A Revolution In Awareness"...This way, everyone can benefit.

Wish more people were as open and sincere as you, Kevin, and some of the other guys on this forum.

This thread is not an issue about paying to learn, it's about paying and not learning. Please don't take any lines out of context.

When a student comes into a system, what guarantee do they have that they will learn all the forms of the style, regardless of how much time and money was spent, disciple or not?

If a "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

Dr. George Lisjak

[Sifu Darkfist]

This is an incredible thread i have enjoyed listening to the different feelings on the subject. It just so happens that i am very lucky to have a master that is true to his word so i havent worried about this. However, it is mentionable and perhaps reiterating what others have said here, that once you have reached a certain level no one can hide secrets from you (unless they never perform, and no one else in their style does either). There comes a point in our understanding that im sure the rest of you Sifus have reached long ago that you can decipher movement with relative ease. It also holds true that in the words of my master that "praying mantis is one of the most complex and difficult athletically of the traditional martial arts... if you can play praying mantis you can play anything" (Yang Xiao Dong). In retrospect, all styles have power generation philosophies, and tactics that are unique to their respective clans but they "are all sons of the same mother" (Liu Yun Chao). When it comes to other Asian matial arts or even American based for that matter, the quest has always been one of reform for effectiveness and conservation of energy, as well as one upping the other systems. This does not change the fact that they are moves that your body (which is human as are all other martial artists) can and will understand the movements of other masters simply by examination and critical thinking. In other words show a true martial artist a secret and he will show you how to make it better.

[Young Mantis]

When a student comes into a system, what guarantee do they have that they will learn all the forms of the style, regardless of how much time and money was spent, disciple or not?

If a "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

Dr. George Lisjak

You are right. There are no guarantees. But just because a student can pay tuition does not automatically mean they should or could for that matter learn whatever it is they want from the teacher.

First, there is a progression to learning anything. If a student has not reached the level to learn what they are asking for, then they will not be taught it, no matter how much money they are willing to pay. The teacher must have the integrity to teach the student correctly and in the proper progression. Teaching a student something they are not ready for is in the long run, just cheating them.

Second, there are some students who just can not progress. My Sifu has modified and reinvented his teaching method over the years. He treats slow learners as a personal challenge to find a way to help them understand. But not all students are willing to put in the work required, whether physical or mental. Some students think they are better than they are and feel they are ready for material beyond their abilities. Just because these students are willing to pay, does not mean they should be taught whatever they want.

Lastly, in any martial art, a teacher is passing on knowledge that can potentially be lethal. A responsible teacher does not hand over that information to just anyonte with a thick wallet. Trust is required between the student and the teacher. If the student is of questionable character, then how can the teacher pass on this information. Why are there background checks when trying to get a gun license? Similar idea. The teacher needs time to decide whether a student is worthy of specific knowlegde. There are no secrets, only a timeline to when a student may learn something. A basic level student will not learn advanced techniques not just because they are not ready, but also because the teacher does not have the level of trust with the student required to give that information. It should never be up to the student to decide when he/she is ready to learn something.

Vance
YM

[Ou Ji]

Young Mantis
Based on your post how long do you think someone should wait before it starts to become apparent that you aren't going to get what you want, what you went there for in the first place?

I realize when it comes to learning everyone is different but it looks like the guys who complain about having a bad experience always seem to have spent 10+ years before they decide it's a lost cause. That's a lot of time. How many times can you do that in your life?

And most hard core students are there to learn how to fight and defend themselves. That means everything up to and including lethal techniques. I sure as h3ll would hate to get killed because my teacher didn't think I was worthy of learning lethal techniques. Agreed you don't teach them in the first year but after 5 or 6?

You can spend a lifetime learning a style but that doesn't mean it should take a lifetime to learn.

[EarthDragon]

Wow george what a great thread. we spend so much time discusing tehcniques we overlook thing like this. something that hits home.

both you and I have been on the same road with the same people. This was one of the reasons for your, mine and steves departure from the ACMAF only to be shoned upon by the still active members.

However there are definitly teachers out there, who will take advantge of this situation. them having something we deisre; and us willing to do anything to get it. they are selling a service not a good so unfortunatly we are subject to get what they give and nothing more. This often leads to us becoming frustrated to the "later later" answer.
however if you think that what they have is worth sticking it out we will, that is until the fristration over rides the desire.

there are no guarantes in life, and in a perfect world we can take what our teachers tell us to the bank. however with the internet giving up information like it has most definatly the truths have been called out.

This is a terrible shame and takes the devotion right out of the equation all together. be well

[David Jamieson]

The comments about payment of fees taking a back seat to other desires is all too common.

This is a business structure problem more than anything else.

basically, whether you like it or not, the person who is not up to date on their fees should by all rights be denied their space on the floor. It's a hard lesson for them, and if they leave, you'll know where they're at anyway and you didn't really lose anything.

Your time is as valuable as what you are offering, to not give you teh dues as one would give at any other store is a slap in the face.

no fees? No lessons. Period. I know that'll be tough for some of you guys, but face it, you will keep chipping away at the respect factor if you do not take a hold of your endeavour and let others dictate the terms by which you run teh financial end of your business.

Guy goes to the store and wants a loaf of bread to eat, he pays for it first before he even gets one bite. It's good business to do this guys, get it in ya.

run your business like a business and you will receive a whole different treatment, run your business like a family and expect to be treated like your family treats you. lol. Family are often our greatest critics and usually do not pay their debts within the family with any promptness or until a scene is made. For the most part, it is a mistake to do this this way. especially here where the paradigm just doesn't work that way. Your sifu is not your dad, those students are not your kids, respect will be reciprocal. If you are seen as a pushover, you will be treated as one and remember, people will treat you as you allow them to treat you.

Martial arts has no secrets. Just hard work. People selling secrets are full of sh1t at the highest order and they'll also be the first ones to fill your head with all the nonsense that goes on in martial arts across the board.

People who cannot find it within themselves to do the hard work for whatever reason will not achieve any measure of kungfu. people who ca't pay a lousy 30 or 50 buck fee for their instruction don't deserve the instruction, kick them outtil they are serious.

revocation of awarded certificates or titles is not all that uncommon. I don't agree with it. It's happened to me and had nothing to do with what I could or can do. My hands will explain to anyone who brings it up if it's that important to them.

I personally would not do this to someone because it is just malice. Teachers and students have similar responsibilities. Especially when they are within the same club and even if there is a falling out. It doesn't change any of the years in, money spent or any of it. It's just an ugly thing.

[mantid1]

I have a great idea.

Why dont all of the instructors go to class tonight and pull 10 students to the side.

Ask them what it is that they want from your class. I bet many will take a long time to give an answer. Why? Because they probably dont know exactly what they want or how to explain it.

write these answers down.

In one year take the same students (if any are left, which is doubtfull) and ask what it is they want from their trainig?

Again at two three and four years. I bet you get four different answers.

If they do not know exactly what they want or cannot expalin it how can I give them exactly what they want. An instructor has to be a psychic these days.


Here is an example of an unhappy student.

For the last 4 years we have done two person weopons drills every Saturday. Classes are usually smaller so it is "safer". One assistant has been coming to these classes for the past two years. He decides that he needs to make more money so he starts working on saturday morning. Then I hear that he is complaining behind my back that we do not do enough weapons drills. He dicided to change his schedule now it is my fault.

Frustrating.

[Ou Ji]

People who cannot find it within themselves to do the hard work for whatever reason will not achieve any measure of kungfu. people who ca't pay a lousy 30 or 50 buck fee for their instruction don't deserve the instruction, kick them outtil they are serious.

Just to clarify my comments I'm talking about the $100+ range. I'm poor as crap these days but even I can swing $30-$40 a month. I can't manage $75 or more which seems to be the norm anymore. Especially when travel is involved.

[Americanmantis]

Hi guys,

Sfu Darkfist~ I have also enjoyed the responses. Awesome point.

Ou Ji~ Right on!

Earthdragon~ Great post. Very insightful interpretation. In my experience the problem is more far reaching than just the ACMAF.

For a new student coming to check out your curriculum, why advertise what you can't sell, or offer a service you don't deliver?

Young Mantis~ That's the one sided respect/control mentality theory, where the "master" is omnipotent (having unlimited power and authority) and the student has no rights or guarantees for their investment. This kind of thinking doesn't work in America, or the modern world for that matter...centers for higher learning, Universities and Colleges.

It's not an issue of getting something cause you have money either.

What about the student who has reached the level to learn what they're asking for, put in the work required, are educated and know where they are in a system, are ready for the material, of good character, are as skilled as they think and can prove it; But, for reasons outlined in my initial post the "master" decides after 5 years the student isn't worthy?

What is the time line then? Maybe a refund or litigation is in order.

If the "master" tells the students to jump off a cliff, maybe they should follow without question?

Thanks for your input though.


Dr. George Lisjak

[Young Mantis]

Young Mantis~ That's the one sided respect/control mentality theory, where the "master" is omnipotent (having unlimited power and authority) and the student has no rights or guarantees for their investment. This kind of thinking doesn't work in America, or the modern world for that matter...centers for higher learning, Universities and Colleges.

It's not an issue of getting something cause you have money either.

What about the student who has reached the level to learn what they're asking for, put in the work required, are educated and know where they are in a system, are ready for the material, of good character, are as skilled as they think and can prove it; But, for reasons outlined in my initial post the "master" decides after 5 years the student isn't worthy?

What is the time line then? Maybe a refund or litigation is in order.

If the "master" tells the students to jump off a cliff, maybe they should follow without question?

Thanks for your input though.


Dr. George Lisjak

When a student enrolls in college, is there a guarantee that the student will get a diploma? No. If the student doesn't go to class, doesn't do the homework, doesn't understand the material and can't pass classes....The same is in learning Gung Fu. The student must do the work required.

As for your example of the "master" that doesn't live up to his obligation as a teacher, I don't know. I guess I am fortunate to not have had that kind of experience. A good teacher will teach those that have proven to do the work. I think it is possible to hold on to tradition without having the extremes you give. There are many qualified traditional instructors who do not live to cheat their students.

Young Mantis
Based on your post how long do you think someone should wait before it starts to become apparent that you aren't going to get what you want, what you went there for in the first place?

The student should be asked before even becoming a student what they hope to learn from the instructor. At that point, the instructor should explain whether or not he/she can or will teach what the student expects and a general timeframe it will be accomplished. My Sifu always interviews prospective students. Candidates are always required to watch at least one if not several classes to see if this is the type of school they want before even filling out an application. The program or curriculum of the school should be explained to the prospective student. It should not take a student five years to realize they are not on the path to their goals. If they don't understand what they are learning and how it will lead them to their goal, then they should look for another instructor.

There is a Chinese saying which I think is very true:
"Finding a good teacher is very difficult,
Finding a good student is even more difficult."

Vance
YM

[Americanmantis]

Hi Young Mantis,

Still sounds like the one sided respect/control mentality to me.

Go ahead...jump!

If your "master" doesn't teach you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will...

A Revolution of Awareness

Thanks again for your input.


Dr. George Lisjak