Not everyone is worthy of an MIT education. That isn't MIT's fault. But you are right, there are other schools and MIT shouldn't stop you from improving yourself.
Bo Hou Chuan
Registered User
Not everyone is worthy of an MIT education. That isn't MIT's fault. But you are right, there are other schools and MIT shouldn't stop you from improving yourself.
Bo Hou Chuan
Last edited by bo_hou_chuan; 10-03-2005 at 07:46 PM.
Registered User
Hi Bo~ Guess that's up to the omnipotent "master" too.
In accredited Universities and Colleges, if you do the work, pass the tests etc, you are guaranteed the degree, it's a legal contract. Also, it is the student, given access to the entire curriculum, and not one particular teacher, who decides the speed which he progresses.
If you have the credentials, what stops you from going to MIT? Money? Also who says MIT is the best school? the "Dean".
.................................................. ....................
The wife says I put my time in here. Got a family to feed and bills to pay...oh, after I wash the "master's" underwear...
This post is dedicated to all new martial arts students. It was inspired by my training with Ilya Profatilov, who after training with for 3 years, and discipleship ceremony, decided I am not worthy of learning zhaiyao.
Thanks to all the open and sincere traditonal martial artists who helped me fill in the gaps.
Young Mantis~ I respect your dedication.
___________________________________
A Revolution of Awareness...
If your "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.
Have fun with this thread. Thanks for all the insights...
God Bless,
Dr. George Lisjak
www.Americanmantis.us
Registered User
Hi Bo~ Guess that's up to the omnipotent "master" too.
In accredited Universities and Colleges, if you do the work, pass the tests etc, you are guaranteed the degree, it's a legal contract. Also, it is the student, given access to the entire curriculum, and not one particular teacher, who decides the speed which he progresses.
If you have the credentials, what stops you from going to MIT? Money? Also who says MIT is the best school? the "Dean".
.................................................. ....................
The wife says I put my time in here. Got a family to feed and bills to pay...oh, after I wash the "master's" underwear...
This post is dedicated to all new martial arts students. It was inspired by my training with Ilya Profatilov, who after training with for 3 years, and discipleship ceremony, decided I am not worthy of learning zhaiyao.
Thanks to all the open and sincere traditonal martial artists who helped me fill in the gaps.
Young Mantis~ I respect your dedication.
___________________________________
A Revolution of Awareness...
If your "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.
Have fun with this thread. Thanks for all the insights...
God Bless,
Dr. George Lisjak
www.Americanmantis.us
Shifu
american mantis, no hard feelings I pray? please PM me
I understand your bitterness and realize this is not just about the federation. if it were just 1 party invloved, this discussion would not be so prevelant, in many other circles.
We must realize that different cultures have different ways and tradtions. Somtimes these traditons cannot be enforced or practiced in our american way of living and thinkig. While some may take advantage of this, others have sufffered also as a result.
it is a shame that some bad apples spoil the bushel, however we still must manintain a level of loyatly and devotion. this only comes about form one proving themselves. this is not a monetary thing.
Martial arts is a lifestyle and cannot be purchased as a good. if so the rich would be the best martial artits buying the best lessons.
Yes you can pay for lessons but that does not entilted you to anything. pay for what you get theory is not the corrct mentality. tha is saved only for the worthy. just becuse you pay money in this country does not make you worthy. we would like to beleive that in america if I spend my hard earned money then that should entiltle me.
but value is not always placed on the all mighty dollar. can wisdom be bought? dicipline and hard work and proving yourself over time have a price which cannot.
It is sad that the greatness of martial arts is sold and traded like stock which lessons the value.
how would buddhism be different if Boddidharma gave his wisdom for money? it took a poor monk an extreme measure of worthyness to prove to his teacher he was the one.
Dear george, dont feel cheated, feel learned. for without the blinders on you may see more clearly. be well
KUNG FU USA
www.eightstepkungfu.com
Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
Wu style Taiji Chuan
Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."
Registered User
I think the masters should think much harder before they make someone a "disciple".
Why not say "hey Joe your my student". Leave it at that. You can still give them everything. You just wont have the problems when they leave.
I think a student should think long and hard and find out exactly what a disciple is before they become one. From what I understand you are not supposed to question your master when you become his disciple.
I never want to be called someones disciple.
I see so many people say "man this guy is the best!" then 6 months later they say "he's not so great, but this other guy is the best!" ......etc.
It amazes me that so many people would want to become a disciple to someone. Especialy when most of the people that I have come across in the CMA are divorced or in a dysfunctional relationship. If you cant make it work with someone you love how could you make it work with a stranger? I understand it may not be as close of a relationship but basic comitment is just that.
Yes, I know the divorce rate in China is probably lower in China than the states because of "tradition". But, many of the Chinese masters I have met did not have a problem nailing other people behind their wives back. Who knows it may just be "tradition".
This post is a general statement with no one person targeted.
Have a nice day
Shifu
Actully they say a true shrfu/ tudi relationship is greater than that of family. For a marriage is a matter of compramise and reasoning. this is not true with a true shrfu/tudi communion.
this does not mean the master telling the student to jump off a cliff should not be questioned and done. it means that when the teacher loves the student he will only instruct the student to do what is best for him.
My shrfu for instance Yen Chu Feng first met James Shyun she said he not true shrfu. True Shrfu not act like this. His shrfu Wei is true Shrfu. he have many long time students who love him always even after he gone.
Her love for me is that of her only son. she came to the US to visit, was told by her shrfu that she would meet me and follow me. I didnt know what this meant at first, but she stayed in S.F until I moved back home never returned to China. Then I called her when I got settled, she bought a one way ticket and moved acroos the US to acity she didnt know and stayed with me till she got on her feet and got an apartment. she now lives in Buffalo and has healed 1,000 of sick people in NY PA OH. She hs visited China since then but still will live near me. This is love for her Shrfu as she was told to stay here in the US with me. for waht i still dont knowLOL perhaps I was meant to heal. I am still soul searching on this one but that becomes very personal.
A QUESTION TO ALL.....................
My point is is your shrfu told you to stay in a country you only went to visit, which you had never been to before, cant speak the language, and left evertything you own behind even your son, and told to follow a person whom you have never met would you????? if you trusted your shrfu totaly and knew they would not harm you and knew what was best for you would you listen?
Last edited by EarthDragon; 10-04-2005 at 08:35 AM.
KUNG FU USA
www.eightstepkungfu.com
Teaching traditional Ba Bu Tang Lang (Eight Step Praying Mantis)
Jin Gon Tzu Li Gung (Medical) Qigong
Wu style Taiji Chuan
Teacher always told his students, "You need to have Wude, patient, tolerance, humble, ..." When he died, his last words to his students was, "Remember that the true meaning of TCMA is fierce, poison, and kill."
Registered User
Earthdragon, Mantid1,
I can appreciate your comments regarding teacher and disciple.
Traditionally, discipleship may be acknowledged by the teacher after many years of closely teaching, observing, and evaluating the student. During this time, the teacher looks for depth and quality of the student's moral character, as well as depth and quality of the student's understanding of the system.
In modern times, there are many other ideas of discipleship. It is very sad.
N.
Registered User
Nice name -N-
Don't forget the Depth and Quality of the pocket book!
In modern times ideas of discipleship change with the wind to suite omnipotent self serving masters.
Worthiness translates $$$$$
Only God can judge my moral character; And, anyone judging my understanding of the system can discuss it with me in person.
oops...sorry, that's all I have to say.
Take care -N-
_____________________________________
A Revolution of Awareness...
If your "master" isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.
Dr. George Lisjak
Registered User
Americanmantis,
I'm sorry for the bad experiences you've had to endure. It should not have been that way.
best wishes to you,
N.
Registered User
The more I think about it I dont know if I have ever met anyone who could keep the responsibilities of a disciples master or be a disciple.
The only example of a good disciple I can give you is my dog.
It is 100% devoted to me. It sits when I say sit. It downs when I say down. It stays when I say stay. It jumps over what ever it tell it to. It bites when I say bite. When someone approaches me it gets between that person and myself to protect me. When I tell it to find something, it finds it or looks untill i say stop. After I send a fist crashing down on it for a correction it will always stay by my side and take the correction, even if I am in the wrong.
I can not give you a good example of a master of a disciple. I feel I am hardly worthy of being my dogs master let alone another human.
Registered User
That is a good lesson you've given. Thank you.Originally Posted by mantid1
Also, it makes me realize that there are some who think that their mastery of a skill gives them the right to mastery over another person. Apparently, that a person has mastered martial skill doesn't necessarily say anything about what kind of person he is.
I once said to someone who had become very disillusioned and depressed, "Look, he's just a regular human like everybody else... except that he can kick your azz really really fast."
In The Sword Polisher's Record, Sifu Adam Hsu writes a bit about unrealistic expectations that others may have of him as a Sifu. He tells them something along the lines of, "Look, I'm really just a regular person. I'm not the answer to all your issues and needs"
N.
Registered User
I could have this completely wrong but I always thought that discipleship had to do with who was chosen, by the master, to carry on the family style of Kung-Fu, in the name of the master. These people functioned in this capacity both in the school of the master and in public after the master retired.
Along this line of thinking also though, I have seen schools that were taught by students of a master but were those who were not named either "disciples" or "graduates". (I will not name names but I believe that we all know and respect many of these senior names in Tanglang).
All this to say that a disciple treate his master well because of what he is being given and the master treats the disciple well, knowing that therein lies the future of his investment in time, energy and knowledge. Not that this happens on either part all the time but it is kind of how I look at it.
Libingshao
Startin' Trouble
Sounds about right to me plus I've always heard that each master only picks 12 disciples. What I'm curious about is why limit how many students are entrusted to spread the system?
I have seen instances where all 12 disciples eventually wander off and don't carry on the system. What does the master do in a situation like that?
Not only that but do all the students know, going in, that they won't be getting the whole systems, no matter how long they stay and train, unless they are chosen to become disciples?
Registered User
George,
A response to your comments is being formed as of this writing by Ilya and his disciples. I strongly suggest you read it.
Registered User
Libingshao, again your comments make sense.
Ou Ji, I'm sure the process varies from teacher to teacher. Maybe that is how it is done in Infinite Monkey Boxing?
As far as getting the whole system, I'm more familiar with the teacher teaching everybody the same, but not all students being able to understand. If you haven't learned the material and do not meet the teacher's standard of quality, he would not have you represent his teachings as a disciple. Though I can see from the discussion here that apparently there are teachers that deliberately withhold material. I would suggest rather than withhold material, just pick a student that you want to teach fully and without reserve.
N.
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