Secrecy and Discipleship in America

[-N-]

Just a few random comments.

I know a traditional Mantis teacher that teaches his students without charging tuition. He doesn't advertise for students, accepts very few, and has turned away others. Needless to say, he does not rely on teaching KF for making a living. When teaching, he gives everything he knows, and limits only by the ability of the student to understand.

Recently someone inquired about becoming a student... a 10 year old boy. The boy was very polite, so the teacher talked to him for a while to find out why he wanted to learn, and to find out if the boy had good character or might become arrogant or a troublemaker. After some discussion, the teacher thought that the boy might make a good student and could benefit from training. He told him to come to the following week's class.

The boy asked how much he would have to pay to be a student. The teacher told him that there would be no charge, except that he had to practice hard, do his kung fu homework every day, and never use his kung fu to cause trouble.

The following week, the new student showed up as he was told. Before the class started, the student gave the teacher 2 big oranges that the parents had him bring as a token tuition payment.

The new student met his Sihings and practiced along with the rest of the class as best as he could. The teacher gave him footwork drills and saw that he practiced without stopping or complaining even though his legs were shaking and his feet hurt him.

The teacher gave the student some more things to practice and told him to repeat 100 times. After some corrections, he told the student to do 50 more times. After that, it was 25 more times. During this time, the student practiced without being lazy, even though the teacher was looking the other way and helping the other students.

3 hours later, the class was over. The teacher gave the new student more homework, and reminded him that he should never use his kung fu to cause trouble. He warned him that if that ever happened, he would be expelled from the class and could not be a student any more.

Maybe this student will be a good one. Hard to say.

N.

[mantid1]

N

That is a good example.


We read that and think "wow this kid is great much better than the average"!

The sad thing is that I and maybe others woud think of this as exceptional.

This should be the norm for everyone. It should not be so hard to practice and work hard at something you enjoy.

I was just happy to see my 9 year old praciticing his Broad sword in the kitchen when I walked through. Maybe he will have the "core of the mantis boxer" someday

[Gold Horse Dragon]

To me, this is about commercialism vs traditional and somewhat about good Sifu vs bad Sifu and good student vs bad student.

I never ran my Kwoon as a business. Membership fees were charged and the fee was an amount just enough to cover the rent and expenses of running a non-profit corp. There was lots of free stuff such as; Dit Da Jow was free, treatment for injuries was free, tea was free and with lion dance money I would take the dancers out for a meal. On some occasions I paid for new years dinner for students and spouses who could not afford it. For one of my senior students at the time, private lessons were free, acupuncture treatments were free, herbal treatments were free and he came over for a number of meals prepared by my wife and Simo of the Kwoon. So…my point is…kung fu martial art lessons were not charged for and neither were the other items plus more. Material taught, had to be earned by the student, in conduct, knowledge and ability. Did not charging for lessons result in a better student/person?…NO for some, YES for others and for some YES for awhile and then NO after. Some of the ‘NO’ ones will be a big NO, such as this guy, who turned a bad side and is full of unjustified anger, resentment and malice. In fact, he went retrograde (real regrettable) shortly after moving to another city and started and still does black ball me..even though he had free private lessons, meals, dit da jow, and the rest. This guy thinks he is a victim with a capitol ‘V’, when in fact he is not a victim at all. I ended up having to expel him and remove his grade. As a Sifu, in over 25 years of teaching, I have only had to remove one students black sash for behaviour unbecoming. It was not done lightly and he was given numerous chances…but in the end it had to be done…and as a Sifu not charging for lessons, but rather for expenses of running the Kwoon, I had and have every right to do so and it was a consequence of his actions. Heck, if I had done this to my Sifu, I would have received not only an expulsion but also a most serious physical lesson. Unfortunately, I could not remove the knowledge and teaching I gave this guy…unless of course he gets total amnesia. However, what I could do and had to do, was to reject him as a student and one time friend. Would I have liked for this to have turned out much differently than what transpired…of course…but what is …is. From a few other of my students who know what appreciation, consideration, loyalty and respect is, I did and do have returns (spiritual and worldly help when I need it) from them.…some of these students are old friends now and they have not changed even after 19 years, though they no longer do kung fu due to health issues. They just had and have a much different set of values and code of conduct than other students of mine, such as this guy.

Are there teachers out there who treat their students badly and unfairly…sure. Are there students who treat their teachers badly and unfairly…most assuredly.

For you honourable Sifu out there, appreciate a good student and give students a chance, but if the student is a bad apple or penny…then he is…and you have to do what needs to be done.

For you honourable students out there…appreciate a good Sifu when you find him and if not finding one…keep trying…they are out there.

In western culture, I personally believe that if you run a commercial school, based on ‘pay for every single thing’, then run it like one, without the other traditional requirements. If you operate a traditional school, where the only fee is ‘membership’, to cover operating expenses, then run it as such and students have to understand this and abide by those traditional requirements.

For students thinking it is ‘tough to be a student’, believe me it is much ‘tougher being a Sifu’. Well…as the saying goes…when the going gets tough the tough get going…all the rest go shopping.

[Sifu Darkfist]

the sad thing is all the political cr ap. I would burn in agony to save the life of my master or gung fu brothers. I believe my master would do the same. I do have question as to the gung fu brothers that do not present as prolific example as i.

This is sad because i plan to enlarge this group in this area exceptionally, and sadly due to graduate school choices i will have to leave it, however i will leave it to my gung fu brothers or at least one of them. The one least likely to bad mouth me to further his own greed for power.

I dont care if i am brother 13 or brother one the truth lies in the application of the techniques. Also the ability to effectively teach these styles helps dramatically. More importantly one of my first masters warned me of form chasers and those that are always in search of more.

They never master any form or style, they never learn how to fight, and they never learn the secrets of the arts for themselves.

"It is better to know one or two forms perfectly than to be able to walk through 100". Dr. i wouldnt worry about Zai Yao it is just a reiteration of all the other forms just like any other. In fact you guys have said all along, if you gain deep understanding of the first few forms you will have the tools needed to successfully take the style to the street.

"Basics are the most important thing, without them you have no martial arts" (Master Yang)

[-N-]

Mantid1,

Good on your son

Watch out though, in a few years you're gonna be finding sword marks, holes, and footprints on your kitchen ceiling

N.

[TaichiMantis]

About the secrecy thing....

When I first started, I wanted to learn everything about the history of CCK TJPM. I found a few forums where students of our grandmaster's kung fu brother posted. I really enjoyed their posts, however, I haven't seen anyone from that school online for quite awhile. I do wonder if they were discouraged from posting on forums....sad.

[EarthDragon]

gold horse dragon............. beautiful post.

To everyone.............
it seems as thought his thread has stirred up bad blood. and I would like to tell the forum that my comments and responses are soley based from my own experiences.
I am not commeting on anything or anyone else's . I am not taking sides or defending anyone. I didnt see how my responses could be miscontrued as such but it seems as though they were. So for the record I speak only of what happened to me in the this very same situation and realize that every situation is different but this sort of thing has happned to more than just a few people over the years in the world.
it is a public forum and everyone is entitled to thier opinon even if those opinons are opposite. I have had to agree to disagree more than once and realize every point brought up here is valid to the person whom said it. I love the fact that we have this medium to discuss what troubles us, enthuises us, and makies us happy. be well

[yu shan]

Mantid1

Well sir, the fruit does not fall far from the tree. You coach both your son and your students well! You are a fine father to your boy and your students are lucky to have you for a Shifu. I have never seen someone train as much as you. You spend alot of quality time on your martial arts and it shows. Your Teacher has done good.

TaichiMantis

You should hook up with Mantis108 he is really good guy and very knowledgeable. He has a nice website and forum. I can relate about posting here... I mainly just sit back and read/learn. I feel there is some cr*p but also a heap of quality information. I appreciate contributions made here that have made me a better person.

I too stress the basics! I truley believe in them. I think I have spoiled my students with some pretty nice Mantis forms, not alot though compared to the 7* guys. Think I am going to spend a year or so fine tuning these sets. I am going to focus on the differant stages of learning our forms. Lien stage, ling stage, and pi stage. I will not even get to the chai stage for a while. See mantis quarterly vol.1 issue 1 to explain these stages. We spend alot of time on two person hand drills and kicking drills.

[kejia nu ren]

i think this is a very important topic that is being discussed, and feel that it's beneficial to see how people approach discipleship, traditionalism vs. commercialism, and closed door teaching in different ways.

I was recommended a book by a co-worker called "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan. I'm just getting to the end of it now, and although the book is written from the experiences of someone who was trained in the Korean and Japanese arts, the principles and themes he writes of are universal to all martial arts (most of the fundamentals stemming from TCMA anyways). I found the book to be very thorough and applicable for students who may not understand what studying a martial art should entail (not only physical training, but mental training and character building). It doesn't specifically focus on discipleship, but there is a chapter on the teacher/student relationship, and certain conflicts that may arise from this delicate bond.

I enjoyed the book and would recommend any student serious about "living the martial way" to pick it up...for teachers who may have difficulty gettin their point across with students, they may want to make it suggested reading. Just some thoughts.

[mantid1]

Yushan

Just trying to live up to your example!

[TaichiMantis]

i think this is a very important topic that is being discussed, and feel that it's beneficial to see how people approach discipleship, traditionalism vs. commercialism, and closed door teaching in different ways.

I was recommended a book by a co-worker called "Living the Martial Way" by Forrest Morgan. I'm just getting to the end of it now, and although the book is written from the experiences of someone who was trained in the Korean and Japanese arts, the principles and themes he writes of are universal to all martial arts (most of the fundamentals stemming from TCMA anyways). I found the book to be very thorough and applicable for students who may not understand what studying a martial art should entail (not only physical training, but mental training and character building). It doesn't specifically focus on discipleship, but there is a chapter on the teacher/student relationship, and certain conflicts that may arise from this delicate bond.

I enjoyed the book and would recommend any student serious about "living the martial way" to pick it up...for teachers who may have difficulty gettin their point across with students, they may want to make it suggested reading. Just some thoughts.

You would also enjoy Budo Secrets, required reading in our class.

[yu shan]

Thank you for the tip. I will get this book... anything to help get my point across to some of my thick headed young people. But then it would be nice if some of my older students would step in and assist with some do`s and don`ts. I am sure there is alot I can learn from this book, I am just a student myself.

[TaichiMantis]

Mantid1

TaichiMantis

You should hook up with Mantis108 he is really good guy and very knowledgeable. He has a nice website and forum. I can relate about posting here... I mainly just sit back and read/learn. I feel there is some cr*p but also a heap of quality information. I appreciate contributions made here that have made me a better person.

.

Yup, we've interacted quite a few times! In fact, he may have some insights into why some of these posters seem to have dropped out of sight...

[-N-]

Keijia nu ren,

Perhaps you could post some short synopses of some of the themes in that book? I'm sure many of us would appreciate that.

N.

[-N-]

Here is another story that has been passed down. About a teacher and a student. The teacher is very well known, and no longer with us. The student is not anyone that is known here, so no one need be offended.


Years ago, a Sifu first started teaching, doing so part time out of his garage and backyard. He had a small group of students who trained hard with him. He didn't hold back, and they became his first group of senior students. After some time, the Sifu opened a commercial school, and the students followed him. The school was very successful - to the point where the Sifu quit his regular job to run his school full time. The classes grew to the point where the Sifu would spend his time teaching the senior students, and the seniors would teach the juniors; a traditional arrangement.

All seemed well, but somehow it was not. One day, the senior students approached their Sifu. They told him that they had learned everything he had to teach, that he had nothing left to offer, and that they were leaving to start their own school. Not only that, but they would take students with them also. As a further arrogance, one senior challenged the Sifu to fight, and then attacked him to prove his own superiority to his Sifu and the rest of the students.

The Sifu was outraged. How could this be?! Betrayed by his closest students, his favorites, the ones that he gave so much attention to, the ones that he valued the most!

The senior attacked quickly, explosively, and with vicious intent... exactly as he was taught by his own Sifu. The Sifu had no choice but to react. Countering the attack, he found himself snatching out the eyes of his attacker. In a split of a second, thoughts raced through the Sifu's mind. "Yes, it will be a good lesson for the student, to become blinded." "No, this student has a family. A wife and a baby. Innocent people should not suffer."

As the tip of his mantis claw began to make contact, the Sifu changed his technique. The vicious counter to the equally vicious attack changed at the very last instant. Instead of blinding the proud boastful student, the Sifu simply and gently touched the student's eyelids and closed his eyes for him. That, was his final lesson to the student. "Yes, I have nothing left to teach you. You should leave now and never come back."

The student's attack succeeded in one thing only... in breaking his Sifu's heart. The Sifu closed down his school and sent away all of the students, every last one.

After a period of long reflection, the Sifu knew what he wanted. He had thought about the hundreds of students that had been in his school. Among other things, he gave careful consideration to their character. He contacted a very few of the students and told them to come back. These were the students that he allowed to train with him again. For many years, the Sifu refused to teach any others. Only after a very long time did the Sifu gradually begin to accept an occasional new student - students that he could be sure would be dedicated and of good character. Once every year or so, the Sifu could be heard to say quietly after a lesson, "I never taught this before to the others."

N.