Chan Wah Shun Vs Wong Fei Hung

[canglong]

In search of more information on this topic, thanks in advance.

Southern Shaolin Global Discussion

[canglong]

Originally posted by Hungman
The Hung Gar curriculum of Wong Fei-Hung
The Hung Gar curriculum that Wong Fei-Hung learned from his father comprised Single Hard Fist, Double Hard Fist, Taming the Tiger Fist 伏虎拳, Mother & Son Butterfly Knives 子母雙刀, Angry Tiger Fist, Fifth Brother Eight Trigram Pole 五郎八卦棍, Flying Hook, and Black Tiger Fist 黑虎拳. Wong distilled his father's empty-hand material along with the material he learned from other masters into the "pillars" of Hung Gar, four empty-hand routines that constitute the core of Hung Gar instruction in the Wong Fei-Hung lineage:


"工" Character Taming the Tiger Fist 工字伏虎拳


The long routine Taming the Tiger trains the student in the basic techniques of Hung Gar while building endurance. It is said to go at least as far back as Jee Sin, who is said to have taught Taming the Tiger—or at least an early version of it—to both Hung Hei-Gun and Luk Ah-Choi.



Tiger Crane Paired Form Fist 虎鶴雙形拳


Tiger Crane builds on Taming the Tiger, adding "vocabulary" to the Hung Gar practitioner's repertoire. Wong Fei-Hung choreographed the version of Tiger Crane handed down in the lineages that descend from him. He is said to have added to Tiger Crane the bridge hand techniques and rooting of the master Tit Kiu Saam as well as long arm techniques, attributed variously to the Fut Gar, Luohan, and Lama styles. Tiger Crane Paired Form routines from outside Wong Fei-Hung Hung Gar still exist.



Five Animal Fist 五形拳/Five Animal Five Element Fist 五形五行拳


These routines serve as a bridge between the external force of Tiger Crane and the internal focus of Iron Wire. "Five Animals" (literally "Five Forms") refers to the characteristic Five Animals of the Southern Chinese martial arts: Tiger, Crane, Leopard, Snake, and Dragon. "Five Elements" refers to the five classical Chinese elements: Metal, Water, Wood, Fire, and Earth. The Hung Gar Five Animal Fist was choreographed by Wong Fei-Hung and expanded by Lam Sai-Wing 林世榮, a senior student and teaching assistant of Wong Fei-Hung, into the Five Animal Five Element Fist (also called the "Ten Form Fist"). In the Lam Sai-Wing branch of Hung Gar, the Five Animal Five Element Fist has largely, but not entirely, superseded the Five Animal Fist, which has become associated with Tang Fong and others who were no longer students when the Five Animal Five Element Fist was created.


Iron Wire Fist 鐵線拳


Iron Wire builds internal power and is attributed to the martial arts master Tit Kiu Saam 鐵橋三. Like Wong Fei-Hung's father Wong Kei-Ying, Tit Kiu Saam was one of the Ten Tigers of Canton. As a teenager, Wong Fei-Hung learned Iron Wire from Lam Fuk-Sing 林福成, a student of Tit Kiu Saam.


Wong Fei-Hung was known for his Fifth Brother Eight Trigram Pole 五郎八卦棍, which can be found in the curricula of both the Lam Sai-Wing and Tang Fong branches of Hung Gar, two of the major branches of the Wong Fei-Hung lineage, as can the Spring & Autumn Guandao 春秋大刀, and the Yiu Family Tiger Fork 瑤家大扒. Both branches also train the broadsword 刀, the butterfly knives 雙刀, the spear 槍, and even the fan 扇, but use different routines to do so. Mother & Son Butterfly Knives 子母雙刀 can still be found in the curriculum of the Tang Fong branch.

Those practicing this ciriculum it would be nice to hear if things have been added or subtracted where you train.

[Ben Gash]

The syllabus of most Hung schools has expanded on that somewhat, but those forms are still in evidence in most lines. Many people complain that Ng Ying is simply Fu Hok Seung Ying in a different order, and doesn't really offer anything new. Indeed one of my teachers took it out and replaced it with a village Hung 5 animals form which was A ) harder and B ) had more animal flavour. My current Hung teacher's line combines both a WFH line and a village line, and once students have learned Ng Ying and Sup Ying they learn village Sil Lum 5 animals and ten animals forms. If you look on the CLF and Hung Gar thread I've posted links to the syllabus.

[Jim Roselando]

Hello,


As far as Koo Lo village records state that this is not an accurate story!

Chan Wah Shun did not fight Wong Fei Hung.

Leung Jan did!

There are different sotries about the fight but the most common one is that it was a Pole/Staff fight. I heard a possibility that there was a re-match with the empty hand but am not 100% so?? I even heard the story from some Wong Shun Leung people about Leung's fight with Wong! Hendrik's research also come accross this story as we talked about it a while back.


Peace,

[canglong]

Chan Guo Ji said, according to his family's records, Chan Wah-Shun and Wong Fei Hung once tested each other's martial skills, which is an interesting story. One day, Wong Fei Hung took two of his students to find Leung Jan for a (martial) match, and at the time the rules were to first test Bridge Hands. Leung Jan was somewhat small, and felt that it would be hard for him to wind at Bridge Hands. Moreover, Wong Fei Hung didn't know Leung Jan, so Leung Jan asked Chan Wah Shun to take his place at Pressing Bridges.

So Jim actually the 2 stories are congruent with one aonther, just that Chan Guo Ji has information you may not have.

[Jim Roselando]

CLong,


So Jim actually the 2 stories are congruent with one aonther, just that Chan Guo Ji has information you may not have.


I appreciate the story but it does not make sense to me! Seems more like a story that has evolved to be more Chan family fable than reality. That could be the reason for more info..

I will try to explain what I mean below!


One day, Wong Fei Hung took two of his students to find Leung Jan for a (martial) match, and at the time the rules were to first test Bridge Hands. Leung Jan was somewhat small, and felt that it would be hard for him to wind at Bridge Hands. Moreover, Wong Fei Hung didn't know Leung Jan, so Leung Jan asked Chan Wah Shun to take his place at Pressing Bridges.


The above story is so so strange to me!

1) Leung Jan's art is Rou Jing! So! This would mean Chan's art would also be Rou Jing! How or why would two top Rou Jing artists/fighters agree to press or rub bridges, something they do not do, with a someone who is a Strong Hard Art Bridge Hand specialist? Size would not matter as its not their game so they would not stake their reputation on the line and agree to play someone elses game!

2) Playing Kiu Sao before a fight is funny! Never heard of such play before a fight and it would not make sense as WCK is an art of Chi Sao not Kiu Sao. Even modern great fighters like Wang Xiang Zhai publically wrote that when people came to test him in Push Hands he thought it was a waste! Waivers in LJ's time were common! How would this sound: Wong Fei Hung shows up for a fight. They sign the waivers. Step back, rub some bridges to warm up and then start fighting later??? Nope!



Also:

As Chan Guo Ji told this story, he also demonstrated the Butterfly Palm technique, saying that by using this technique you can attack an opponenent at a distance.


According to our preservation of Leung Jan's Wu Dip (butterfly) palms skills the above Chan demo/version of Butterfly Palm must be something different! Butterfly Palms were one of Leung Jan's favorite and most useful skills. It is not used at Long Range! Indeed a closer body method/skill with its own Butterfly Hand Chi Sao training.


Peace,

[canglong]

I appreciate the story but it does not make sense to me!

Jim you're not saying these are the facts you're not saying here are the facts here is the proof. You are saying it's my word against Chan Gou Ji so take my word for it. Interesting.

1) Leung Jan's art is Rou Jing! So! This would mean Chan's art would also be Rou Jing! How or why would two top Rou Jing artists/fighters agree to press or rub bridges, something they do not do, with a someone who is a Strong Hard Art Bridge Hand specialist? Size would not matter as its not their game so they would not stake their reputation on the line and agree to play someone elses game!

For all your exclamation points we still know Leung Jan's art as WCK, then you even say so yourself. Had Chan Wah Shun lost Leung Jan's reputaion would still be in tact.

2) Playing Kiu Sao before a fight is funny! Never heard of such play before a fight and it would not make sense as WCK is an art of Chi Sao not Kiu Sao. Even modern great fighters like Wang Xiang Zhai publically wrote that when people came to test him in Push Hands he thought it was a waste! Waivers in LJ's time were common! How would this sound: Wong Fei Hung shows up for a fight. They sign the waivers. Step back, rub some bridges to warm up and then start fighting later??? Nope!

So no proof is ever good enough for you if it goes against your ideas of how things work, you disregard the fact that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun curriculum states Kiu sau, chi kiu then chi sau. Secondly even if Chan Guo Ji has proof it's not proof because it doesn't fall into your ideal of how things work. Let me see if this is correct you are not taking his (CGJ's)Word and if he has proof it must be a forgery. At this point it must be asked have you ever met Chan Guo Ji?

As Chan Guo Ji told this story, he also demonstrated the Butterfly Palm technique, saying that by using this technique you can attack an opponenent at a distance.

Chan Guo Ji was able to demonstrate what it is he was talking about, can you?

[Jim Roselando]

Tony,


Jim you're not saying these are the facts you're not saying here are the facts here is the proof. You are saying it's my word against Chan Gou Ji so take my word for it. Interesting.

First, the story is well known and verified by numerous lineage. So, I dont take anyones word for it but go with the more likely. We also need to understand the mind set of the guys back then and what is known about how things went on back then. Stories sound nice but certain things are known about the old days IMO.


For all your exclamation points we still know Leung Jan's art as WCK, then you even say so yourself. Had Chan Wah Shun lost Leung Jan's reputaion would still be in tact.

Really? See, we need to understand the mind set and not just enjoy the stories IMO.


So no proof is ever good enough for you if it goes against your ideas of how things work,

What proof? You are promoting a Story right? A story that you obviously feel strongly enough to post on numerous web sites which means you must have some belief in it. All I am doing is presenting the same story from numerous lineages and saying something is twisted! I just present my reasearch as you did!

you disregard the fact that Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun curriculum states Kiu sau, chi kiu then chi sau.

Thats great but unfortunately does not mean anything with regards to Leung Jan's art and teaching IMO.

Secondly even if Chan Guo Ji has proof it's not proof because it doesn't fall into your ideal of how things work. Let me see if this is correct you are not taking his (CGJ's)Word and if he has proof it must be a forgery.

Its not my Idea on how thngs work but the possible reality of research and known stuff. All arts, including my own, have BS fluff stories that grow over the years or get twisted etc.. Keep in mind that stating the story is twisted has nothing against Chan Wah Shun or his decendants. Stories grow, stories change, etc.. Thats life! Sit around a big table and pass a story around! I am sure by the time it gets back to you it will not be the same story!

At this point it must be asked have you ever met Chan Guo Ji?

I have never met any of the Chan family but have watched their boxing sets etc.. The Wing Chun "I" have witnessed on video of "todays" Chan family WCK shows lots of evolotion in their art. Remeinds "me" of a combo of some Wing and Weng stuff plus individual expression.

Chan Guo Ji was able to demonstrate what it is he was talking about, can you?

Yes. So could you! Wu Dip is no big deal. Anyone can if they practice! Its not rocket science but how you training!


Peace,

[Jim Roselando]

BTW:

Feel free to cut and paste this debate on your Southern Shaolin Global page if you want! that way it gives a different POV!

[canglong]

First, the story is well known and verified by numerous lineage. So, I dont take anyones word for it but go with the more likely. We also need to understand the mind set of the guys back then and what is known about how things went on back then. Stories sound nice but certain things are known about the old days IMO.

Jim Well put.
So lets see if you can truly look at this objectively by looking at some of the things we do know.
Firstly the differences in application are valid. "Leung Jan went on to teach a few, select students like his sons Leung Bik and Leung Chun, Chan Wah Shun, Muk Yan Wah, Chu Yuk Gwai, and Fung Wah. " These are considered Leung Jan's disciples. " Upon reaching retirement, Leung Jan returned to his native Gu Lao. While there, he taught a few local students his synthesis of Wing Chun. Instead of focussing on teaching the Wing Chun forms, dummy set and weapon sets that were choreographed by the Opera members, he focused his training on the forty short routines and San Sao drills, pole techniques and double knife techniques. These became known as the Gu Lao Sae Sup Dim (40 points) Wing Chun system. The 40 points are the loose expression and application of Wing Chun Kuen. So his immediate disciples are the ones he taught in Fatshan while Leung Jan was younger then so naturally the Fatshan Disciples would posses some knowledge that those pupils in Gu Lao might not have when he started teaching his 40 point WC system.

Secondly, we can agree we need to know the mind set but there is a big difference in embellishing a story and making one up which you seem to suggest. The mind set in this case is one of a disciple and sifu and of all the "kung fu stories we have there are none where we hear of someone taking credit away from their Sifu and inserting themselves into the situation, not one, no self respecting disciple would ever do that and think he would be able to get away with it.

Third, and again going back 150 years and the way families conducted test against one another it does not seem out of the ordinary that two martial artist would not want to test their skill bridging in the manner in which Chan Guo Ji describes.

Lastly, you are entitled to your opinion yes but you are bordering on using yourself and your opinion as a source of information to discredit others somewhat like hendrik.

Thats great but unfortunately does not mean anything with regards to Leung Jan's art and teaching IMO.

Hung Fa Yi is proof over your opinion. Not a wise move adopting this hendrikism since he uses himself as the source to prove Wing Chun's tan sau comes from emei but ask him to prove it and he can't he would be much better received if he just said his own family tan sau came from emei.

So, when looked upon objectively there is nothing odd or out of the ordinary about the story that Chan Guo Ji describes when viewed looking at the time it occured the people involved and the manner in which it happened all these events are quite plausable just as he described them. Do you have to believe him no, but the reasons you give for not believing him are more suspect than the story of Master Chan Guo Ji.

[Jim Roselando]

Tony,


Jim Well put.
So lets see if you can truly look at this objectively by looking at some of the things we do know.

Sure! Lets talk!

Firstly the differences in application are valid.

Ok! You are correct to a point! There are always different ways to use different methods but they need to fit within the proper mold IMO. Wu Dip is closer range skill. Wu Dip at long range would not work! Kind of like throwing an elbow from 3 feet away. There are numerous ways to Wu Dip based on the basic mold but once you get out of the basic area Wu Dip will not be functional.

"Leung Jan went on to teach a few, select students like his sons Leung Bik and Leung Chun, Chan Wah Shun, Muk Yan Wah, Chu Yuk Gwai, and Fung Wah. " These are considered Leung Jan's disciples. " Upon reaching retirement, Leung Jan returned to his native Gu Lao. While there, he taught a few local students his synthesis of Wing Chun. Instead of focussing on teaching the Wing Chun forms, dummy set and weapon sets that were choreographed by the Opera members, he focused his training on the forty short routines and San Sao drills, pole techniques and double knife techniques. These became known as the Gu Lao Sae Sup Dim (40 points) Wing Chun system. The 40 points are the loose expression and application of Wing Chun Kuen. So his immediate disciples are the ones he taught in Fatshan while Leung Jan was younger then so naturally the Fatshan Disciples would posses some knowledge that those pupils in Gu Lao might not have when he started teaching his 40 point WC system.

This info. has little to do with his first disciples teaching and preservation. With regards to some of his earlier pupils knowing more or less I think there would need to be a meeting of these disciples for comparison of Leung's teaching IMO. Actually! I tend to think the differences in Leung's teaching may not be because who learned what but who still preserves what!

Have you ever experienced Koo Lo stuff? Have you experienced any of his Futshan pupils stuff outside of lineages that link to Chan's decendants? One would need to cross check whats what IMO. Our stuff is somewhat different to other Futshan stuff. This intrigues me so it would be a worthy meeting.

Secondly, we can agree we need to know the mind set but there is a big difference in embellishing a story and making one up which you seem to suggest.

Well, its not un-common (even these days) for fancy stories to be told/sold to outsiders or public. Its real common. I am not saying that is the case but one must keep it in mind! The story of Leung and WFH is well known. From many circles. Maybe they got the stories confused and like anything it gets more fancy or fruitfull as the years go on. Maybe its something else. I tend to go with the more likely.

The mind set in this case is one of a disciple and sifu and of all the "kung fu stories we have there are none where we hear of someone taking credit away from their Sifu and inserting themselves into the situation, not one, no self respecting disciple would ever do that and think he would be able to get away with it.

Who said Chan Wah Shun said that stuff? It seems like most of WCK's evolution (art and stories) happened years after the big guys were gonzo. The further you go back the more similar WCK actually was! Keep in mind its not really different from the people who make things up and add a funny story to it to sound more authentic or whatever. Its just common. I could be right or I could be wrong. But it is very common.

Third, and again going back 150 years and the way families conducted test against one another it does not seem out of the ordinary that two martial artist would not want to test their skill bridging in the manner in which Chan Guo Ji describes.

We are all open to believe what we want. Free World! The above sounds like two schools meeting up to exchange and maybe even a little bit of sparring after but not a real waiver signed fight! Totally different and still very very unlikely unless the two sifu's were friends.

Lastly, you are entitled to your opinion yes but you are bordering on using yourself and your opinion as a source of information to discredit others somewhat like hendrik.

How is that! All I do is post the Numerous sources and info regarding that stuff and go with what is more likely. You posted your info. from your sifu and my research from Koo Lo family, Wong Shun Leung people, Cho family info. etc..


Hung Fa Yi is proof over your opinion.

Everything is always open for debate. Just because one lineage out of 12 says they have Kiu Sao it does not fall into the More Likely category for me.

Not a wise move adopting this hendrikism since he uses himself as the source to prove Wing Chun's tan sau comes from emei but ask him to prove it and he can't he would be much better received if he just said his own family tan sau came from emei.

Nothing wrong with discussing different sources of info.. Hendrik has his research based on different stuff and can show connetion via Ging and other stuff. Ask others to show some connections or source of birth and its not un-common for them to say all kinds of stuff but when you ask to discuss usaully there will be no DNA to link to. Atleast he provides that but all views are valued!

So, when looked upon objectively there is nothing odd or out of the ordinary about the story that Chan Guo Ji describes when viewed looking at the time it occured the people involved and the manner in which it happened all these events are quite plausable just as he described them. Do you have to believe him no, but the reasons you give for not believing him are more suspect than the story of Master Chan Guo Ji.

Your right! I am sure it does as you are a big fan of terms like Grandmaster and Master etc.. I am a big fan of thinking of people like regular Human beings and try to relate to them in such a way. Sifu Says is a great place to start but we all need to compile whats known, from all sources, and come up with a more likely. Chan Gou Ji's version of the well known "famous" Fight between Leung and Wong sounds nice but luckily the story has been told for many years in many families.


Peace,

[canglong]

An up close look at your post and your "sources".....

There are always different ways to use different methods but they need to fit within the proper mold IMO.

Actually! I tend to think

I think there would need to be a meeting of these disciples for comparison of Leung's teaching IMO.

Have you ever experienced Koo Lo stuff? Have you experienced any of his Futshan pupils stuff outside of lineages that link to Chan's decendants?

I have never met any of the Chan family but...

The above sounds like two schools meeting up to exchange and maybe even a little bit of sparring after but not a real waiver signed fight! Totally different and still very very unlikely unless the two sifu's were friends.

All I do is post the Numerous sources and info regarding that stuff and go with what is more likely.

You have an interesting source or is it sources.

Just because one lineage out of 12 says they have Kiu Sao it does not fall into the More Likely category for me.

As long as you have your opinion you'll never be wrong Jim good luck with that...

luckily the story has been told for many years in many families.

You are trying to say a story is "more likely" to be untrue the further it gets away from the source yet you use all the "other families" and "other stories" as your source for a "most likely" scenario, again very interesting line of logic. Chan Guo Ji is as about as close to Chan Wah Shun as any individual can get today.

[Hendrik]

One day, Wong Fei Hung took two of his students to find Leung Jan for a (martial) match, and at the time the rules were to first test Bridge Hands. Leung Jan was somewhat small, and felt that it would be hard for him to wind at Bridge Hands. Moreover, Wong Fei Hung didn't know Leung Jan, so Leung Jan asked Chan Wah Shun to take his place at Pressing Bridges. -------------------



Jim,

It is just a story same with other story so, it is ok to take any story with joy.



As for to look deeper into the story.



IMHHO, the key issue of whether if this story is possible or not lay on



the questions :

1, is Wing Chun art a size dependent art?

2, is Leung Jan doesnt have enough Kung Fu or Jing to neutralized?

3, Is force against force is the only way while playing with bridge? As we know the Internal art people can have lots of different option or alternative instead of using force against force.

4, what is the power generation type behind Leung Jan's bridge? What is the power geneartion type behind Wong Fei-Hong's bridge? What is the power genearation behind Chan Wah's bridge, are they the same?

5, how big is Wong Fei-Hong compare with Leung Jan and Chan Wah?



IMHHO, looking at every steps and detail closely often tell the possibilities of doesnt it possible?


As for my humble opinion, WCK doesnt depend on size but depend on the kung fu or Jing. Similar to WXY doesnt depend on size. My sigung Cho On is small size and that is not a weakness for him but lots of flexibilities.


BTW: IMHO, the kung fu or Iron wire set of Hung gar, IMHO is different then the SLT kungfu of Rou Jing. They are different type of power and power generation.




With all the above discussion, well, I guess we will ruin the fun of the story and the Joy of sharing something just a story. seriousness is not that great sometime isnt it? for seriousness can be cold and dry and we all dont like it.

[Hendrik]

. Not a wise move adopting this hendrikism since he uses himself as the source to prove Wing Chun's tan sau comes from emei but ask him to prove it and he can't he would be much better received if he just said his own family tan sau came from emei.

.

You got it wrong.

Hendrik Said,

" Wing Chun's Tan sau is origin from the Water Shape Hand of White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian. Tan Sau's power generation type is power by Emei 12 Zhuang's Rou Jing type of Power. Thus, Wing Chun 's Tan sau is different compare with White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian."


You are certainly open to proof him wrong and provide a Shape/Structural DNA similar to White Crane Weng Chun of Fujian, and a Power DNA of Emei 12 Zhuang to public.


Will be great to see your DNA solution.

[Jim Roselando]

Tony,


You are trying to say a story is "more likely" to be untrue the further it gets away from the source yet you use all the "other families" and "other stories" as your source for a "most likely" scenario,

Stories evolve. Life evolves. Everything is always evolving. Nothing you or I can do about it.

Chan Guo Ji is as about as close to Chan Wah Shun as any individual can get today.


Fung Chun, Leung Jan's grandstudent is pretty close to the source IMHO!

As long as you have your opinion you'll never be wrong Jim good luck with that...

Funny how you think that is what its about! lol

My beliefs have constantly evolved over the years and still is! I am very open to change! Why not present some more info. to support your story? Perhaps, one other source outside Chan family? Until then I have to say I believe Koo Lo info, Cho info. Yip Man info. and other written info. as they all seem to have the same story.



Peace,