Chinese Government Official History of CLF

[extrajoseph]

The Chinese Government has recently published an official history of sports development in the Guangdong Province and the whole book is available on the web. It is official because the web address ends with "gov.cn".

Under Section 3 Chapter 1, there is an official record of the development of folk martial arts group in Guangdong prior to the founding of the Republic and there are two entries on CLF at the beginning of the chapter.

One is on the history of the King Mui Hung Sing Gwoon and the other is on the Futsan Hung Sing Gwoon.

It is written very clearly that Chan Heung was the sole founder of CLF and Jeong Yim was his disciple and Jeong took over the Futsan branch in 1851 after the original teacher went blind. The name was then changed from Heroic Hung Sing to Great Goose Hung Sing.

No mention whatsoever of the GGM or Cai Dezhong.

You can read all about it, the book was researched and written by a committee of government official historians:

http://www.tyj.gd.gov.cn/shengzhi/docc/3th/jie12.htm

I hope this official record will settle the question of who is the founder of CLF and whether there is a GGM, once and for all.

[TenTigers]

INCOMINNNNNNGGGG!!!!!!!!!!

[gwa sow]

who the he\\ cares anymore. its not they would have taught us gwai los anyways. this is an ambarrasment to clf and i am sick of reading this garbage. its ruining clf and this forum. i dont want to tell people that i study clf and hear them respond "oh yea, you guys are always arguing." forget about it. just go train. your comp. fu is better than your kung fu.

[Kennyfist]

Gwa sow,
If you are not interested.....you don't have to read these type of threads.....and you don't have to respond....you can just....."go train"......Ok?

Does Hsk claim to be an "official historian"? Looks like his claims have "chinese government" "official" "contradictions".....

[Fu-Pow]

I had my Chinese co-worker translate the first part for me. Basically, it is a record of who founded the styles in Guandong, where they were located, who the students were etc. Basically, it says that Chan Heung is the founder of Choy Lay Fut in King Mui. It talks about his first batch of students and how they went on to open gwoons in 26 villages in 1 year!!! Apparently, the person who started the Futsan gwoon, Lung Chi went blind, so Jeong Yim was sent to replace him. It specifically says that Jeong Yim was a student of Chan Heung.

I don't know who wrote this thing or if they have their own agenda. But this pretty ****ing evidence against Frank's whole story.

Thanks for posting it EJ.

BTW, is this a book that can be purchased? I'd like to have it for my own reference collection.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Fu-Pow,

I am not sure where you can buy this, it was published for quite a while now, sometime between 2000-2001, but you can download the whole section on CMA, here is the first page of the relevant section:

http://www.tyj.gd.gov.cn/shengzhi/docc/3th/jie1.htm

They also stated where the research material came from:

http://www.tyj.gd.gov.cn/shengzhi/docc/shuoming.htm

七、本志资料来源于广东省档案馆、广州市档案馆、省体委档案室、中山图书馆、孙中山文献馆和其他有关部门提 供的有关档案资料，各市、县体育志，历年《中国体育年鉴》和《广东年鉴》等。本志各章、节中有关上述资料不 再注明出处。

It definitely does not came from the "Chan Family"! As far as I know it was done by the government as reference material for sports organisations, hence it is an open access.

Gwa Sow, I am sorry to have brought this up again, but somehow this whole saga needs a final ending. Now as far as I am concerned, it is very clear what is the documented history of CLF, why people want to change history with myths and hearsays (for political and financial reasons) and why people like Frank behaved the way they do (thanks again Fu-Pow for your insights).

Peace to all, and hopefully no more CLF history debates!

[hskwarrior]

remember something,

where did the chinese government the information to compile such a history?

when they wanted to know about the chan heung family line did they go to? the chan family right?

when they wanted to know about the history of the hung sing kwoon who did they get their information from?

in 2005, the chinese government just now is putting together a history of their martial arts.??????????? almost 200 years later?

of course there's no mention of the green grass monk.

but ej, how do you explain the official website of the chan family and on one of the front pages it strictly says that choy fook was the green grass monk? Are you telling me you will believe the government who was the one who put the ban on gung gu in those days somehow kept all of the history books when they were supposed to be destroyed because of the gung fu ban?

fu pow, you're are a joke, and so is joseph, because if he was so secure in his history he wouldn't even be trying to prove me wrong?

if you people don't realize that much of gung fu history was lost due to that gung fu ban and instant death for anyone caught disobeying government law its not my fault you're lost.

this new government document thing is a current thing and has nothing to do with actual history. it is all part of the current government trying to resurge their lost national treasure, and in doing so they are as equally lost as we are and can do no better than you or me. the information had to come from somewhere. information about the clf style isn't just floating around like dust particles waiting to land on someones shoulders.

this new information is a mock up of what once was. now, ej says that jeong yim opened up the fut san hsk in 1851, but how about it saying that it only "Organized" it in 1851 since their were so many hung sing schools in fut san. if most of you non hsk people didn't know, the fut san hsk wasn't just one school teaching the hung sing clf. there were multiple schools in fut san. so they only organized it in 1851. still doesn't prove me wrong yet.

see, i have never engaged anyone on how much i've researched our history. but check this out, the only way for the government to know that there is a historical rift between the chan and hung sing branches is because it came from the chan family. the reason why i know, if you ever go to the fut san hsk, there are "NO" pictures or likenesses of chan heung in this or any hung sing kwoon. how would you explain that dear brother ej?

i can't stop laughing at you guys who are so desparate to keep chan heung the only founder. look at ej, because of me "he" keeps up his research as well. EJ, and the rest i would like to say, "you owe it to me!"

the government is trying to rekindle what they lost. in the process they are trying to get together as much information as possible to present it for posterity.

I truly wish most of you would just take some time and research what china was like from the early 1800's into almost the 1990's. whaty about fa lun gong, the chinese government because they are afraid of it because it has such a great great following.

if you guys are going to believe joseph, without knowing the whole picture in the first place, you are only getting a glimpse of it all. and if you guys are satisified with what you currently believe, thats fine you can believe a government who is desparate to rekindle their national treasure, something they helped to destroy long ago. they had to get their info from somewhere, right? i just wonder who they got it from?

[hskwarrior]

fu pow,

you said this new document said that lung chi went blind? do you mean LOONG GEE (choy)?

what about chan din fune?


you guys are so gullable and desparate because you don't know who to believe.

first you believe the chan side. now you believe the so-called government, and possibly the chan family got their own history wrong.

this is hilarious.

[hskwarrior]

i keep reading everyone's post,

and this new document was written up for some sports thing, not an official document of the founding of clf.

i thought the official founding information should come from the source, so why are you guys believing what joseph posted?


funny, so damm funny

[Fu-Pow]

No frank....YOU are hilarious.

[extrajoseph]

Hi Frank,

What you need is a paradigmal shift, Fu-Pow was spot on about you, did you read this and understand what he was saying? Obviously not!

This discussion is about values and value systems. Now, values and value systems grow and expand as our conciousness expands. Each level of the value hierarchy "transcends and includes" the system below it. Many researchers in the field of pscyhology have come up with a similar structure of how values sit on top of each other. The most well known is Maslow's hierarchy of needs. However, I'm going to refer to a different model proposed by Dr. Clare Graves called Spiral Dynamics (http://www.clarewgraves.com/articles...Futurist.html).

Basically the value system progression goes something like this, starting with the most basic and fundamental and increasing in complexity:

Archaic-Instinctual
Magic-Animistic
Mythic-Membership
Rational-Scientific
Pluralistic-Relativistic
Integrative

Now most people on this forum are operating (at least cognitively) at a rational-scientific level or higher. Our buddy Frank, however, is operating at the mythic-membership level. His whole self is tied up in these myths and his membership in this very specific Futsan group. When you guys attack the group and their claims it is like you are attacking him personally. All your rational arguments mean nothing to him because he isn't operating at that level. He only sees it as an attack. It reminds me of the creationism vs. science debate that still pervades schools. Its a lower, more emotional level of conciousness trying to attack a higher, more rational level....anyways......

Now some of us are even beyond the Rational-Scientific level. Even though Frank doesn't make any rational sense we can show compassion to him because we realize that he is just "stuck." We are open to many different viewpoints and can hold them all in our brain at the same time even if there is paradox. However, we don't confuse this for the WHOLE truth, nor do we see the Rational-Scientific as the WHOLE truth because we see that each claim although partial, but might have some truth to it.

So essentially, we should have compassion for Frank and see that he is simply attacking something that he doesn't understand.

Frank, you need to learn to expand your horizons and progress beyond your current "stuckness." By holding on to myths and making your membership in your group dependent on its truth you are limiting your own potential. Eventually you will be let down.

It's time to move up and out into Rational-Scientific conciousness and then beyond.....

I am sick of you getting stuck in the Mythic-Membership level and wasting a lot of our time and since you are not going to grow up, I just have to give up on you.

Cheers, old pal. Keep holding on that myth as though your life depends on it but I am going.....

[hskwarrior]

this is so damm funny.

just because the government issues somepaper on the history of choy lee fut, you people act as its law. so, where do you think the researchers of china's government got the information on choy lee fut? Hmmmm, did the china government somehow keep a secret record of choy lee fut's development?

uh......


No! when they wanted to know about the king mui branch they went there and interviewed them. the same thing with the hung sing school as well.

Hmmmm, i wonder how the government knew that there was a historical debate going on?


now what seems strange to me is that joseph, who fights for the chan side, believes in choy fook, and claims that there was no green grass monk. however the official chanfamily website at choyleefut.com.cn they mention that choy fook was known as the green grass monk. this comes directly from the chan family, and even on doc fai wong's websight.

so now, it seems joseph should have a problem with the chan side because according to their family records choy fook was the green grass monk. if this wasn't true, then how and when did the green grass monk turn out to be choy fook.

so if joseph disputes the chan side, now, you know....the guy who claims im always wrong........then i will continue to dispute them too.

the fight goes on joseph.

[hskwarrior]

joseph,

if you are sick of it, why do you respond and waste your time?

if you are sick of it, why did you add that new thing to your posts?

why if i am so wrong are you trying so hard to prove me wrong?


hmmmmm

[mung foo]

This kinda reminds me of the conspiracy theorists who think that Hitler and Elvis are still alive in some government vault.

[Kennyfist]

Hsk,

So are you questioning the authenticity of "government sources" of information?

If so, wasn't it YOU who told us about futsan GOVERNMENT saying jeong yim is founder of clf?

Wasn't it YOU who told us about jeong yim school being first REGISTERED according to futsan GOVERNMENT?

IS THIS SOME SORT OF HYPOCRISY TYPE OF BEHAVIOUR?