American Mantis

[EarthDragon]

LOL I dont think tears are in order in this case but mom's always help ease the pain.

Seriously I would just question the amount of knowledge needed to create an entire new style.

[Americanmantis]

Hi Earthdragon~ I still haven't told her (mom) about getting expelled.

Questions are good.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, rather than on God."~Colossians 2:8

Hey do you ever hear from Dean? Miss the old days on Parkside and Hertel.
_______________________________

"American Mantis; I had to do something in my spare time learning the basics."

Dr. George Lisjak

[Young Mantis]

Dr. Lisjak,

So let me see if I get this straight.

Bo~ It's intended for people with open minds.

E.D.~ I'm going home and cry to mamma.
__________________________
Dr. George Lisjak

People who are not curious about American Mantis or this Revolution in Awareness are closed minded individuals.

E.D. questions your credentials for starting your own branch of PM and that is your mature and educated rebuttal.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world, rather than on God."~Colossians 2:8
Dr. George Lisjak

My beliefs in "tradition and the basic principles of this world" are hollow and deceptive. And finally, you compare yourself to God.

Quite frankly, I don't care what you do. To each his own. I was quite content to let this thread be except I could not continue to read your attacks on tradition unanswered. I don't see how you expect anyone to call you Sifu. Your revolution and this thread has only strengthened my devotion to my traditions and heritage as well as elevated my awareness of how fortunate I am to have a Sifu who has instilled in me and my classmates the concepts of loyalty, devotion, integrity, tradition and honor. Thank you. And here I thought this thread was useless.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your pursuits as I think you will need it.
May your path and your goals be straight and pure of heart and not fueled by hate nor spite.

YM

[Ou Ji]

Man, some of you guys go way too deep into things.

Everyone, including lineage holders, creates their own version to a certain extent. Some are even expected to add to the style.

If he wants to teach his own interpretation of mantis then have at it. If people didn't teach their own way of fighting there would only be a handful of styles.

The only problem is that nowadays nobody really fights so there isn't the shakeout there was in the past. If a style wasn't any good it died out. In today's world a lousy style could still flourish and people deceived.

He'll eventually be judged by his peers. As long as he's honest about what he teaches, like most say they would accept (see Shaolin Do) it'll be fine.

"It's intended for people with open minds."
Marketing hype. It does not infer that uninterested people are close minded at all. And whether the intent and the reality are the same remains to be seen.


The problem I see is the potential to teach standard traditional mantis and pretend it's something he made up. Which brings up a question:

If he was an 8 Step Mantis sifu then why can't he just teach his interpretation of 8 Step as he learned it? This situation give me the feeling that if you aren't associated with a lineage you have to go renegade and make up your own.

[NeedsPractice]

If he has
a- found a way to speed up the learning curve
or
b- get more information across on how to actually do things effectively
thats good

often people study things for a long time and either
a- dont get it
or
b- the important small details arent told to them ( the details that make the stuff actually work)

Anybody teaching martial arts ( especially the chinese arts) should be concerned with the above because alot of stuff is getting lost, and the average student isnt capable of filling in the missing pieces.

I think JKD was kind of an attempt at that but..........the best intentions.............

[Americanmantis]

Hi guys~ This is what I'm talking about. But first, want to set the tone of this discussion as level headed debate, kinda like philosophical chess...

As I mentioned several times, I love traditional Praying Mantis. If I didn't I wouldn't have stuck it out for 20 years...I would have quit after 19. I wish people would just teach it. Refer to the discussions on the Secrecy and Discipleship in America thread.

There are no secrets. They are found in the basics. However, once you learn them, you don't know anything because you don't know the advanced forms. You want to learn the advanced forms, but everything you need is in the basics. Start your own system and you are a renogade who doesn't know anything.

In 20 years, almost every teacher I've come across believe their way is the correct way, and would not acknowledge previous training from someone else.

I still teach a traditional program. I am developing a program to teach American Mantis based on the chapters of my book. American Mantis will be taught separately. However, I believe it will help in the understanding of traditional applications from a different perspective.

Earlier in this thread I outlined the basis of knowledge on which American Mantis was built. I can't joke with Earthdragon because I'm educated? I've known him since the early 90's. I knew American Mantis would stir controversy, and "crying to mamma" meant not giving up at the first sign of resistance. Read his reply, he amused by it.

"It's intended for people with open minds", means open your mind. This discussion doesn't apply to everyone. There are sincere open minded traditional teachers out there. They are just hard to find. A student could spend decades looking for one. These guys have so much information they don't have time to hold back forms.

And, to the guys wondering why their traditional style isn't flourishing in America...try teaching the material; And, God forbid you supplement your teaching with such technologically advanced learning aides as video tape. Bruce Lee said, "To change with change, is a changeless state". It is possible to change the way material is taught, without changing the material taught. What good is knowledge if it can't be shared? After all, it's all about preservation right.

Lastly, with the Biblical quote, I in no way compare myself to God. It is about keeping higher principles of truth above traditions created by man. "All men fall short of the glory that is God."

That is what the "Revolution of Awareness" is all about.
__________________________________


"American Mantis; I had to do something in my spare time learning the basics."

Dr. George Lisjak

[-N-]

Live and let live.

N.

[truth seeker]

Youth mantis:

Let me set things straight for you since your level of hypocrisy knows no bound.
You attack Dr. Lisjak on his views and concepts and yet you know nothing of them. Maybe if you took the time to understand what is really going on and why you would see that everything you have interpreted is false. This is not a revolution against traditional beliefs but an evolution of martial arts understanding. He is only trying to make aware that there are people out there that are trying to rip you off. He has never attacked the traditional way of life and actually has complimented his belief in it.
You accuse Dr. Lisjak of comparing himself to God but if you understood the meaning of the quote you would realize that he is only humbling himself in God's presence. Although religious beliefs are not the issue here Dr. Lisjak is a strong believer in God and maybe if you have ever read this book called the bible you might make some sense of your own in it.
You think Dr. Lisjak is immature because he jokes with an old friend in an open forum. How dare you insult someone for try to make ease of the constant attacks on his person. I have known Dr. Lisjak for well over 10 years and all I have seem in this time are the constant attempts to take advantage of his kind and respectable demeanor.
You talk about values such as loyalty, integrity, and honor and yet you don't seem to understand the meaning of such ideals. Throughout my entire life of knowing SIFU Lisjak I have never met someone so honest and caring . He has always shown such values to everyone that he has encountered only to get thrown to the curb when he questions some of the traditional ways of some masters. Integrity is defined as doing what you know is right even in the face of opposition.
Sifu Lisjak is only trying to broaden his horizons in his search for the truth with kung fu and life. He has never stated that all traditional kung fu masters are evil and corrupt. Actually he only wants to stengthen the traditional views of the student and teacher by try to bring to light how a student and teacher show respect to one another. There has been a great deal of attention to how a student should show respect to the teacher but little acknowledgement on how the teacher should respect the student. Maybe someday when youth mantis starts to enter the realm of adult mantis this idea can be understood. Good luck in YOUR pursuits as I KNOW you will need it.



"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds" ... Albert Einstein.

[Three Harmonies]

Seeker
Relax dude, and smoke a fatty or something! YM brought up some valid points, and like your friend Lisjak stated he was ready for questions, and opposition. You have learned much from this man, that passion shows through.......but you have yet to learn some acceptance (of others ideas that is).
I know Mr. Lisjak solely through email. Always been very kind and nice to me. He told me about this idea of his a few moons ago, and so far I have sat back and enjoyed the show.
I am caught in the middle (deciding that is) to be honest. I have experienced some of the same **** that Lisjak has, and it certainly has upset me to the point of angst and frustration. Most of us have spent X amount of years with someone subpar, or not the be all end all. Some of us have been used or abused. I would not go so far as to say that the teacher never respects the student though. Higher level forms are not the be all end all, and if a teacher does not want to teach them, then who cares? My teachers know what I want, technical knowledge in application. If they feel that a form is important, or can help me on my journey, then they teach it to me. The rest of the time is spent on fighting.
George, I think some of the folks here are concerned because you have mentioned more than once about video tape, and the reluctance by teachers to allow such things. I think we all need to clarify things a bit. There is a distinct difference between me taping my teacher doing an application from a form while I am there learning it from him, in essence a reference, and asking a teacher to tape a form and send it to me in the mail!
I do not care how long you or anyone else has trained, you cannot get the true essence of any art solely via video. Period.
As for the comment about those of us complaining about lack luster attendance, and teaching the whole art. You may want to think before you go brushing broad strokes with that paint! I know of many men on this board that teach their art un-biasdly, forms and all, who are suffering. I hold nothing back from my students. Those that have trained with me, or been to one of my seminars, know that if anything I am guilty of overloading with info! In class I move at a face pace. So trust me, their are plenty of us out here that teach everything yet still suffer from a low student number!

All in all I wish you all the best. I think your ideas are great, and they have the right intention behind them. On the other hand I also see what others have commented on regarding you seeming ****y and bitter about things. Who am I to judge? I hope it all works out.

On a slight side note....... you are calling this American Mantis, and have stated that their will be a heavy emphasis on God and Christianity etc. Not sure about your neck of the woods, but around here and other places (throughout America) people really get turned off by that stuff. Those who seem to be stuck in that mindest often only attract Christians of their own sect. Just some advice.

Cheers
Jake

[shirkers1]

[QUOTE=
On a slight side note....... you are calling this American Mantis, and have stated that their will be a heavy emphasis on God and Christianity etc. Not sure about your neck of the woods, but around here and other places (throughout America) people really get turned off by that stuff. Those who seem to be stuck in that mindest often only attract Christians of their own sect. Just some advice.

Cheers
Jake [/QUOTE]


"Now bow down before me brothers as the jesus christ pose striketh down those sinners with a flurry of powerful pi choi's"!!!!

Come on now, this is getting loony. kool aid any one?

[Three Harmonies]

Shirkers..................................you made my frickin day dude!

Where I am from it is called Ghetto juice! I like the cherry!

[Young Mantis]

Truth Seeker,

OK, first of all, you are correct, I know nothing about Dr. George Lisjak except from the recent posts on this forum. In fact, he and I had a dialogue on the "secrecy and discpleship" thread. It seemed clear to me because of his bad experiences with "traditional" sifu's, that it has left a bad taste in his mouth or should I say wallet. In every post, he has accused traditional masters as being financially greedy and witholding information. On each discussion when I offered how traditional teachers should behave, he retorted that it "sounds like the omnipotent 'master'". At no time did he acknowledge that there are traditional teachers who are not greedy nor selfish in their teachings. So his broad statements are what fueled my comments.

So then we come to this thread. I gave my interpretation of what I read. What does interpretation mean? I did not say it was accurate. In fact I asked if I got it straight. You have graciously pointed out that it is not. I very much appreciated Dr. Lisjak's reply to my post although as I said, what he does and how he chooses to teach PM does not really concern me. But my post is merely a reaction to what I have read. I did not say he had to agree or accept it.

Now you call me hypocritical for commenting on Dr. Lisjak without knowing anything about him yet you say I don't understand the meaning of loyalty, integrity, and honor without knowing anything about me either. So now who is the hypocrite? I have studied with my Sifu for 20 years without interruption. I became a disciple after 12 years of study. Although I officially graduated and have been authorized to teach on my own, I remain by his side at his school 5 days a week to assist in any means necessary.

Actually he only wants to stengthen the traditional views of the student and teacher by try to bring to light how a student and teacher show respect to one another. There has been a great deal of attention to how a student should show respect to the teacher but little acknowledgement on how the teacher should respect the student.

Whose "traditional views of student and teacher" are you trying to strengthen? From the posts, it sounds more like trying to impose Western ideas of what this relationship is into a traditional Chinese perspective of what it is not. If that is what Dr. Lisjak is trying to accomplish, then state that and let it stand on its own. I understand there is a reason for calling it "American Mantis". Maybe he would like to strip some of the Chinese traditions and that is fine if that is how he wants to run his school. I can not disagree since it is his school but it seems the word "traditional" is being tossed around quite loosely in these posts.

I was sincere in wishing him luck. Change is difficult and I can imagine he will have resistance from the "traditionalists" but he knew this when he started this thread. I am glad to see he has at least one loyal student to defend his name. If it had happened to my Sifu, I would have done the same.

YM

[Americanmantis]

Hi guys~

Want to begin by saying that I appreciate everyone's input in these discussions. It is not my intention to come across as arrogant or bitter, however I can see where it may appear that way when I am adamant about something.

Let's pull our "punctuation"...

This is not meant to be a religious debate, everyone is entitled to their own beliefs; And, I'm not trying to push mine...just be a good representative. As I mentioned to Jake in one of our emails a while ago, American Mantis is philosophically Christian based, just as other systems have their philosophical basis by virtue of their culture.

Whether or not we choose to acknowledge it, and like it or not, it is a fact that the United States and it's Constitution were founded on Christian values and principles. These same values are what allow us to have our freedoms, ie. religion, speech, etc. Like this forum.

Keep in mind that like respect, religious tolerance goes both ways.

Jake mentioned that many have experienced some of the same feces (scientific word for ****) which upset him to the point of anst and frustration. These are issues that need to be adressed openly.

As you know, I respect your views about video/DVD. I don't subscribe to the theory that you can't learn from them though. If that is the case, send me one of your systems best...and please include applications. You have nothing to worry about right, that is unless it is "secret".

No disrespect, I'm just making a point okay. While nothing can replace hands on training, video/DVD can definitely enhance learning. This is especially true in a distance learning situation.

This technology is used in all professional sports. It is even used in medical procedures like video-fluoroscopy, and has neurosurgical applications like brain surgery. If it can be used for these intricate techniques, I think it would be okay for kung fu.

As far as "true essence" is concerned, ask any teacher from the same lineage what the correct way is, and you will find that everyone is different and theirs is the best.

Okay, and lastly, with reference to "men on this board who teach unbiased, forms and all", lets all offer our admiration and support to these people. These are the guys who should have the students! What have I been saying all along?...if your master isn't teaching you what you want, and are paying to learn, find someone who will.

With reference to "it's fine if the teacher doesn't want to teach them (higher forms), who cares"...As long as the teacher (after he hands over an outline of the system) tells the prospective student that after several years into training he may decide not to teach some of it, I guess it's okay.

Dr. George Lisjak

[EarthDragon]

George,
I am sure you know I did not take offence to what you said, and jokingly replied back in the same mannor. if you are serious about this American Mantis please PM me I have some things I would like to discuss.

[Hoop]

Where I am from it is called Ghetto juice! I like the cherry!

The proper term for that flavor is "red."