The Original Wing Chun

[ntc]

Here is an interesting topic for discussion:

(First of all, no lineage discussions, testosterone explosions, egos, etc. etc. etc, please... just individual viewpoints)

Based on your own WC training as well as any research/knowledge/information/wisdom you might have gained about the art in addition to other kung fu styles, what do you think the very original Wing Chun looked like? (ie, the one that Yim Wing Chun was supposed to have started, and if she did not, then whoever the first WC developer was). Do you think it might have resembled styles like Yip Man Wing Chun, HFY Wing Chun, Hung Gar, Chin Na, BJJ, Crane, Praying Mantis, Tai Chi, boxing, etc, or ????

[PHILBERT]

Well, I look at the original Wing Chun most likely being based on Shaolin. So I would think the original Wing Chun would look more like perhaps a crude Shaolin (Northern or "Southern") than anything else, and later being refined to more directness.

[45degree fist]

Many Believe Chi Sim is the original then was later Refined.

[ntc]

I am kinda thinking along the same line.... especially because of the southern China roots via FutShan. I can actually see it resembling the Hung Gar style, and possibly even in the very beginning more of a hard style than a soft style. If it did in fact have roots tracing back to Shaolin, then it is very likely that there would be some of the animal aspects in it as well. You see a lot of snake and crane techniques in modern day WC, so there is also a chance that these two animals were involved in the original WC. They are among the animals in the Hung Gar style as well.

[David Jamieson]

it's shaolin. a distilled version, but shaolin nevertheless.
It capitalizes on crane and snake animal fighting principles derived from shaolin.

It is not a large system. It is simple and efficient and that's exactly what it was intended to be. It's got elements of heigung(chi kung) in it's siu nim tao that can be applied into any of it's sets.

It's got conditioning with it's mook jong.

It's got some basic weapon training, most importantly the staff which maps over to a lot of other weapons.

Nice, short, small, simple and effective. THat's what makes it so popular.

[KPM]

Too bad Hendrik isn't still around. He makes a very good case against Shaolin roots. He makes a very good case for Wing Chun being an out-growth of older Fukien White Crane...not southern Shaolin. He convinced me of the merit of his theories. I think the "original" Wing Chun likely originated from and therefore bore a strong resemblance to ancestral Fukien White Crane. It then mixed with something else....Hendrik thinks Emei "snake"....to give it a softer power base. I look at the existing Shaolin styles and see very little resemblance to Wing Chun. I look at the existing southern White Crane and Hakka styles and see a much stronger resemblance. So Hendrik's theory makes good sense to me.

Keith

[DRleungjan]

I think the "original" Wing Chun likely originated from and therefore bore a strong resemblance to ancestral Fukien White Crane. It then mixed with something else....Hendrik thinks Emei "snake"....to give it a softer power base. I look at the existing Shaolin styles and see very little resemblance to Wing Chun. I look at the existing southern White Crane and Hakka styles and see a much stronger resemblance. So Hendrik's theory makes good sense to me.

...or why not make a case for it being the very core of Siu Lam [the five animal essences] with a heavy dose of Crane and a sprinkle of Snake? I mean let's take for instance that what was known as Nam Siu Lam might possibly have been a dissemination of northern techniques in the Fukien region and NOT a specific place in Fukien, the Nam Siu Lam Ji as the legends state. One can technically say that an art is derived from Siu Lam (Bak Siu Lam), right? Now the prevalent art of White Crane would have taken some concepts from the northern temple through its Hakka migrants. As far as the snake part deriving from Omei is concerned, I would like to learn more about it. Remember that Wing Chun is BOTH hard and soft and it all just depends on the situation at hand.

Just some basic observations and thoughts on my part.

[Phil Redmond]

I am kinda thinking along the same line.... especially because of the southern China roots via FutShan. I can actually see it resembling the Hung Gar style, and possibly even in the very beginning more of a hard style than a soft style. If it did in fact have roots tracing back to Shaolin, then it is very likely that there would be some of the animal aspects in it as well. You see a lot of snake and crane techniques in modern day WC, so there is also a chance that these two animals were involved in the original WC. They are among the animals in the Hung Gar style as well.

Whether WC has Shaolin roots or not I tend to agree with you. One example is our Kwan
Phil

[Hendrik]

White Crane of Fujian fused with Emei 12 Zhuang enginee with Emei 12 Zhuang's Small letter section's characteristics.

why

because

1, From the FACT and evident side of Chinese MArtial art search:

these stuffs exist and well documented for a long long time and can be traced with clearity -- NO LEGENT Needed



2, From the DNA of Southern Chinese Martial art angle:

The art, applications, technics, and enginee fit into SLT in a very nature way. plug in White crane of Fujian application and Emei Enginee to run SLT. It just fits in naturally.--- NO explaination needed




3, From different WCK lineages View:

It also consistance with some of WCK lineages history that Some one Fuse the Crane and His own art to create and art called SLT.--- No making up story needed.



What is the benifit to go this path?

A, An Empowerment, one be able to use the mother art's huge library of experience to lead one to have indepth view and attain advance Kung Fu without has to redesign the wheel..

B, setting one Free, one doesnt have to copy Taiji or Shao Lin or other stuffs or believing in any legend. But, Can start to learn and do serious training with public domain document of these mother art without have to be confused by lots of different direction and stories.

C, Open Book, No one But ALL own these informations.



What is the catch?

You might get influence and rooting on honor everyone, peace, and harmony , similar to spring. Doesnt mean you become No Cant Do but become Yes, Choose to not Do. when it comes to egoistic arguement or fighting

Think about how much one get influence when Winter is over and living in Spring.

Spring weather is contageous and make one changes to see all the beautifull flowers grow and smell the smell of soil and plants and the happy sunshine. Away from Depression, Hopelessness, Helplessnesss, and Anger or Resenment emotion which Winter cold and dim sun brought.

It just transform one.




How about your Kung Fu?
well, atleast improve by 2x that is forsure by just step on the two mother giants of Chinese's martial arts system shoulders.


Why not?
Being happier, better, empower, and Free?

[Hendrik]

Too bad Hendrik isn't still around. He makes a very good case against Shaolin roots. He makes a very good case for Wing Chun being an out-growth of older Fukien White Crane...not southern Shaolin. He convinced me of the merit of his theories. I think the "original" Wing Chun likely originated from and therefore bore a strong resemblance to ancestral Fukien White Crane. It then mixed with something else....Hendrik thinks Emei "snake"....to give it a softer power base. I look at the existing Shaolin styles and see very little resemblance to Wing Chun. I look at the existing southern White Crane and Hakka styles and see a much stronger resemblance. So Hendrik's theory makes good sense to me.

Keith

Thanks for the Good words.

You dont need me for the Fajing. You just need to go learn some White Crane and Emei. Be certain to Bai Si so you learn the correct stuffs. Not to forget to give it back to help others too after you know what you know later. The name of the Game is not to become extra ordinary but ordinary helping others to do extra-ordinary. and the first step is empower and set them free.

Spring empower all living being to grow. Spring Set all of them free to grow the way they need to grow and desire to grow. So, praise the spring.

[canglong]

Too bad Hendrik isn't still around. He makes a very good case against Shaolin roots. He makes a very good case for Wing Chun being an out-growth of older Fukien White Crane...not southern Shaolin.

The people that advocate these types of story are in fact supporting the argument that wing Chun is in fact a Southern Shaolin Art because White Crane traces its roots back to the Shaolin Temple as well. Yes I agree WCK is a Southern Shaolin Temple Art based on all the things previously mentioned. http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxWCfukien.htm

[ntc]

Thanks for the info, Hendrik.... very interesting. Definitely see a lot of Crane in WC... no doubt about it.

[canglong]

.... very interesting. Definitely see a lot of Crane in WC... no doubt about it.

ntc,
Animal forms, postures and techniques, crane like the others tiger snake leaopard or dragon are very old and common pieces of Shaolin martial arts and as such they are very common in most southern arts and when you see a system using these names, postures and techniques it is just another piece of evidence that the particular system in question originated in or incorporated Shaolin into its system. This is one of the reason Shaolin is considered the mother of all other arts.

[Hendrik]

1, Southern Shao Lin art

Shao Lin is a very general term where it can almost be anything. From martial monk to label of ham as it was in the news paper last year if my memory served.



However, if one is interested in Real Shao Lin, then it will be like the following cases where people found trace of the track and be able to endose the existance of the track....




This is my ex sigung, a real shao Lin martial monk. Late Chan Master Gaocan,
http://www.sekkohsam.tk/

Presently, Shao lin monk form Henan went to Singapore to track his trace down. Because there were Shao Lin document that indicate my sigung was indeed trained in Martial art.


"When Shi Deqian from Henan Shaolin Temple in China, came to Singapore for his book 'The Complete Encyclopedia of Shaolin Temple Martial Arts (volume I & II)", he wanted to write down Yi Zhi Mei. All the schools in Singapore worked hard together and agreed on one version of Yi Zhi Mei, which ended up in the book.

Below a translation of part of the description in the book:


"Yizhimei Quan of South Shaolin temple.

Chan Master Gaocan, originator of Southern Yizhimei (Yi Ki Muay) Quan, is responsible for spreading it. According to records in the Boxing Manuals in Songshan Shaolin temple, the source of Chinese Shaolin Kungfu, Yizhimei Quan came from Shaolin temple.

In Jiaqing time of Ming Dynasty, pirates often violated China. Southeast coast. Many times the government ordered the fighting monks of Shaolin temple to go and suppress the bandits. Some of these monks died and others were heavenly injured on their legs. The latter couldn't return and stayed in the area and started teaching ....


http://wulin.proboards31.com/index.c...4931321&page=1




2, White Crane from Fujian fusing with Emei not only offer the historic solution and also offer Both the DNA of shape and engine solution for SLT naturally. As mention above, take both art, inject it into the SLT/SNT without having to change anything in SLT/SNT ( YM, YSK, Yik Kam version, but not applicable to other lineages) everything will work right naturally.




3, if one forget about the stories but get to the DNA and concern only on how to activate their SLT/SNT, We can track and have a clear view of Shao Lin and track and have a clear view of both Emei and White Crane of Fujian today via thier DNA's. it will not be that difficult to pin point where the SLT/SNT or WCK's core is from.

Thus, IMHO, if one wants to activate the SLT/SNT instead of argue about stories, the case is closed viewing from this perspective. the bottom line of my offer is about set one free and empower one via be able to tap into slt/snt.

However, if one has great feeling about thier story is correct which is different then the above and that story empower them. Why not for them to believe what they want. That way everyone is happy, set free, and empowered. IMHO.

Sometimes, Martial art can become a religion belive, so, as soon as the believers feel great, free , and empowered and do good for others. Why not? Who is perfect and know it all? certainly not me.

[canglong]

it will not be that difficult to pin point where the SLT/SNT or WCK's core is from.

Nothing is difficult if you leave everything undone. 30 years of guessing and you haven't pin pointed the origins. If your tea cup were not so full those 30 years might not have been so fruitless and when you performed your SLT you would not look like A crane standing amidst a flock of chickens.