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Thread: Zhou Gao Shan

  1. #16
    Great thank you that is extremely useful. Do they practise weapon forms do you know? If so what do they train in?

    What do you mean by "Lipi fight"? Is it different from Lipi or is it the applications of Lipi?

    Thank you!

    Black Mantis

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Akron, Ohio USA
    It would be wrong for me to say that we are "pure" lineage 8 step mantis. The guy who is Su Yu Zhang's long term friend (Chen, I just can't remember) has his picture in Wei Xiao Tang's disciple book (My teacher has a copy of the book) also has influenced our 8 step practice.

    Lipi fight is the B side of the form---it correlates with the form.

    In general, beginning students larn feng mo gun, jiben dao, jiben dao fight and lai men dao.

    However, they also learn things like mei hua hand, mei hua lu, beng bu, qi qing Zhao yao, mimen, six harmony spear form, tanglang shou, cao chui (I can't get the right pinyin because of the Taiwan accent but it translates into "inserting fist". No jokes please) Zai kuei, Fen Shen ba zhou, kun wu sword, praying mantis two handed swords. There is also pi'an or is it called bi'men?

    There were also a lot of drills we did in the 80s---two man, learning to block and grab a thrusting staff, two guys would sit and do almost wing chung like blocking and punching (you sat so you learned to move your upper body). There were also leg drills with your hands behind your back.

    They also have picked up a lot of the taiji meihua tanglang from Sun De Yao and Zhang Wei Fu.

    So to make a long story short, I am sure there are true lineage holders of the 8 step system which can add more but this is what we, or I should say they, do.

    I went through a lot of the above but wasn't interested at that time so its the younger generation that does the work in praying mantis---kinda of late in life I realized what I missed by not training harder in mantis. No regrets, it just wan't my bag at that time.
    Last edited by RAF; 10-22-2005 at 05:44 PM.
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  3. #18
    Thank you that is all fascinating. The seated two-man drills sounds particularly interesting and unusual. I train in Babu Tanglang and have only done solo work coming from the Zhou Gao Shan school.

    I have a question regarding the Lohan exercises- I have learned only nine exercises so far, the last one is called "Iron Ox" or something? I've heard there are eighteen in all so I wonder if I have learned something different.

    I am taught by someone who learned from the Zhou Gao Shan group.
    Black Mantis

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Akron, Ohio USA
    It must be a Wutan(g) thing but I also only learned about 9 of the exercises. I think the ocmplete set is on Su Yu Zhang's tape but when I did the seminar with him ( I only went through the first 3 because I had to leave early to take one of the Chinese competitors to the bus station) they were slightly different than what I had learned earlier.

    Zhou Gao Shan---I really don't know anything about him ohter than his name came up on one of the wutan(g) Yang taiji tapes that was out int he 1980s.

    FWIW the supposed abstraction presented on the tape resembled little what Liu had taught my teacher. So I only speak about what my teacher learned and what he taught me---I have no explanations as to why there is so much variations in wutan(g) material.

    That is about all I got left---good luck!
    Last edited by RAF; 10-23-2005 at 11:54 AM.
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  5. #20
    Thank you for all your help. I feel quite alone as I am taught one-to-one from someone who used to belong to the Zhou Gao Shan Wutan group so it is great to discuss it with people who know so much.

    Many thanks for all your information!

    Black Mantis

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 1969
    Akron, Ohio USA
    Well my point wasn't too clear but I really don't know much beyond what my teacher Tony Yang has taught me---I don't know the politics regarding Wutang and Taiwan although my teacher was and is very close to Su Yu Zhang. However, my teacher also studied mantis under others and it really was his first love.

    I am making no judgement regardng Zhou Gao Shan since I don't know him and really never heard anything bad about him.

    I Sincerely wish you the best in your training and if you have any questions, at least from the perspective I know of, please do not hesitate to ask.

    I think there are others that have a much more deeper understanding of 8 Step mantis and they can probably do a much better job detailing out what you might want to know.
    "Its better to build bridges rather than dig holes but occasionally you have to dig a few holes to build the foundation of a strong bridge."

    "Traditional Northern Chinese Martial Arts are all Sons of the Same Mother," Liu Yun Qiao

  7. #22
    Thank you for being extremely insightful. It's great to have fellow 8-Step enthusiasts to discuss with!

    Many thanks!!!

    Black Mantis

  8. #23

    Up Mountain (上山)

    Quote Originally Posted by K.Brazier View Post
    Zhou has a university club here in Tainan as well as one in Gaohsiung.
    I am not sure if he is in charge of any clubs in other cities.

    My Shidi studied with his club, I think Gaohsiung branch, and climbed up high the ladder.
    Said he is in some little mountain in Gaohsiung county. Might be a tea plantation.

    He can be contacted through the Wutan branch. Really, this is a question for Wutan...

    As for what he practices I think he doesn't practice, which is why I don't hang with them. That was my impression when I was there and 2 of my shidi who were there much longer said the same thing.

    I know it sounds bad to say that. But if you want to train with the man it seems unlikely that you will both be dropping sweat on the same floor.
    The clubs just let the students teach.
    Zhou Gao Shan is a Teacher in the umbrella group of the Guo Shu She 國術社 (or Wutang) and has a large non-commercial kungfu family. The organization may be of interest because it is preserving traditional practice and organizational methods.
    It's not that Teacher Zhou has clubs but more rather he is in charge of the Guo Shu She clubs in the Southern District from Jiayi to Kaohsiung. So that would be 6-7 "clubs". The Guo Shu She as set up by Liu Yun Qiao with the help of the Government has an office in every University and most Technical institutes in Taiwan. GM Liu setup the society to preserve TCMA in Taiwan and he got Government Involvement since he liaisoned with teaching his skills to the Government Branches.
    Adam Xu just recently retired to Taiwan and did three years of that with Government agencies but now he is fully retired. So that relationship with the Government is still there. Teacher Zhou I think is the chairman of the Baji Association in Taipei.

    At each of Teacher Zhou's GuoShuShe it is a specific planned out four year program with a permanent "coach" in charge of that operation. There is also a head coach. So that is the only thing an outside observer may be seeing ie - that program for the undergraduates. It has specific objectives to ground the students in basic internal and external kungfu to learn progressively complicated body movements and most importantly to give a method or approach of how to learn physical movements.
    It's basically the same with the other kung fu families or teachers in the Guo Shu She even though their styles may be different. And As far as I know they all do the same traditional practices such as going 上山.
    Somehow Kevin's contacts didn't get involved socially with the society because they missed the essential core which is the traditional mountain temple practice sessions in summer and winter breaks. That's up in the mountains, renting barracks at a temple, doing full time intensive training, (zero spare time) eating vegan, sleeping on raised wooden platforms, wooden blocks for pillow LOL.
    "Go up mountain an ordinary person and come down a superman." It's the general principle.
    The general method of exercising to exhaustion, becoming an empty shell and then learning from a pristine condition. There was a write up on a student's experience doing this under the direction of Liu Yun Qiao. I'm not sure if that is still on the net.

    The "just let the students teach" is a formalized system of generational wave transmission, has a lot of cross-checking and works beautifully. It works well because of Taiwanese-Chinese culture. Teacher Zhou often gives lectures when he visits the various cities and groups. Some students assiduously take notes and they keep them in the local club journals. The lectures are similar to Kenshu Classes as I experienced in Aikido where the Sensei would spend half the class lecturing on some aspect of Martial Arts. I experienced Teacher Zhou as very knowledgeable and the lectures very fascinating.

    When the first year students go up mountain in the the end of the New Year's Break, when they are going down mountain , they go to the Teacher's House. They introduce themselves and he writes their name down in a book and that's that.
    At the end of the second year the second year students are going into third year and become Zhong Bu or HQ unit. This means that they will teach first and second years students while fourth year and drop-in seniors or the coach may watch them from behind (Wave System). But at the end of that second years temple training they stay at the teacher's house for supper, drink his medicine wine, sleep in the tatami rooms. The teacher is always teaching at the front office or out in the street. There is always talking, lecturing, and the discussion more often than not leads to some exercise. Every thing is always kungfu - there is nothing else.
    After that, the students having passed this threshold will go up to the mountains often to visit the teacher when they have time.
    .. .
    But these are not yet his real students, this is just the first group program. The Teacher also has real students. His students extend overseas, throughout the Island and going back many generations.
    There's no commercial entry as with the overseas Wutang or maybe in Taipei. The Guo Shu She teachers inside Taiwan are very insular. A foreigner could end up practicing with one of them but they would have to blend in with Taiwan Society and have a schedule for free time similar to the Uni students. So that's just a matter of happenstance.
    There are other classes and activities at the University other than the basic classes as well as hanging out at the office etc. which if Kevin's shidi didn't participate in is the reason why they didn't find out about the full scope of the society.

    The teaching is very rigorous and the basics intensive. One form a semester + extras. Albeit there is a choice for some forms starting in the third year, So that might account for a seeming variety of forms seen in a demonstration. For the third years students they start an extra class after the main class called "More". Usually just a few moves, same few moves over and over again for 50 minutes.
    Less is more, more or less.

    There are a lot of things about the organization that might seem perplexing but become clear in cultural context with how the uni system and why students might choose a particular type of official spare type activity or She (社) which might become a lifelong involvement.
    There is only intake in the first month of the first year from freshmen. So there is no encouraging or discouraging any prospective students by seeming secrecy. The attrition rate for the next four years for that group is extremely low or non-existent. They are subject to peer pressure and peer bonding at the Uni.
    The Taiwanese examination and educational system has pre-screened students of identical interests and abilities and put them together in the same unis. The cultural system already sorted out potential recruits. Nobody fails, there is no "working your way up" , it's a program concurrent with the four year Uni degree. Either people stay with the program or they don't.
    Last edited by wolfen; 12-21-2017 at 07:30 AM.


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