The good bad student

[lawrenceofidaho]

lets say he trains 5days a week for 5hours a day lets put him against someone who trains 5 days a week 5hours a day for 20yrs who do you honestly think will win?

All things being equal, of course twenty years is better than five years, but what is the point of seeking agreement on that? (I don't know anyone who would be stupid enough to dispute it.)

If you even try and say what style is he using and how does he train then you miss the point totally..

Do you honestly think those factors are not relevant to gaining fighting skill?

IMO, how someone trains is much more important than how long they've trained.

-Lawrence

[Ultimatewingchun]

"The guys like boztepe, cheung, ip ching etc.. these guys are still here their still teaching they still are doing there thing after all these yrs and all the great mma guys in the world obviously are to busy to go chasing after them because the truth is this in a real fight with no rules and just 2 people face to face the outcome will have nothing to do with superior fighting system, rather it will come down to intellegence, will, heart. Good wing chun teacher,student,etc.
would be training all these so in essense why are they any worse off then anyone else training?" (air)


***THE FALLACY with your arguments here is the idea that the MMA approach is not a "superior fighting system". IT IS. Intelligence, heart, and will do play major roles - but without enough tools in your fighting arsenal (which a MMA approach does provide) - the "good" wing chun teacher is giving his students something worse off than the MMA trained fighter. That's not to say that what he's giving them is not valuable - but my point is that it is not AS VALUABLE as what the MMA teacher is giving his students.

...................................


"I believe that a 5'7 130lb woman can survive a fight against 6'8 man 250lbs but not by being able to take a punch or sprawl correctly or roll around on the ground with the big guy"...(air)


***LET'S BE REALISTIC, here, shall we? Her chances are slim. But if she is to have any chance at all - it will be because she's been trained to deal with many different contingencies (ie. a MMA approach) - namely, standup, clinch, and ground - precisely because this behemoth she's fighting might try to punch or kick her, he might try to grab her while standing up, he might try to throw her to the ground and jump on top, etc.

[air]

"The guys like boztepe, cheung, ip ching etc.. these guys are still here their still teaching they still are doing there thing after all these yrs and all the great mma guys in the world obviously are to busy to go chasing after them because the truth is this in a real fight with no rules and just 2 people face to face the outcome will have nothing to do with superior fighting system, rather it will come down to intellegence, will, heart. Good wing chun teacher,student,etc.
would be training all these so in essense why are they any worse off then anyone else training?" (air)


***THE FALLACY with your arguments here is the idea that the MMA approach is not a "superior fighting system". IT IS. Intelligence, heart, and will do play major roles - but without enough tools in your fighting arsenal (which a MMA approach does provide) - the "good" wing chun teacher is giving his students something worse off than the MMA trained fighter. That's not to say that what he's giving them is not valuable - but my point is that it is not AS VALUABLE as what the MMA teacher is giving his students.

...................................


"I believe that a 5'7 130lb woman can survive a fight against 6'8 man 250lbs but not by being able to take a punch or sprawl correctly or roll around on the ground with the big guy"...(air)


***LET'S BE REALISTIC, here, shall we? Her chances are slim. But if she is to have any chance at all - it will be because she's been trained to deal with many different contingencies (ie. a MMA approach) - namely, standup, clinch, and ground - precisely because this behemoth she's fighting might try to punch or kick her, he might try to grab her while standing up, he might try to throw her to the ground and jump on top, etc.

To say mma training is better then any other form of training is a fallacy.Since in the end we all end up with 2arms and 2 legs no?

so basically you are also telling me that size and strength does matter unless a little lady can clinch or play any other game she is done fore.

this is my point to a T the way MMA is presented in most cases favors the stronger person , and well in real life MOST of us dont have the luxury of being a suburb specimen of genetics..Most of us are just regular simple folks who need a way to defend our self against all these elite fighters in the world..

rolling around on the ground in real life isnt a very safe tactic. as far as games i wouldnt know about them as i dont train to play games but i suppose thats a point of view.

TO call anything better then something else is a fallacy in of itself. so to say mma is a superior way to train(as if this term isnt as old as time itself).

basically you are telling me if my stand up game is great the person in front of me is going to reconize it and since his ground game is superior im done for..?

What if his or her attempt to take me the ground fails does that mean there going to have to resort to the stand up game and hope for the best... or to say

the problem here is mma is not a evolution its something that the media hyped up.Cross training is a great tool.

In the end if you are unable to freely be who you are with out limitation without notion, without a opion you are blinding yourself to the very things which you are trying to free yourself from..never said wing chun or anything was better then anything else , im simply saying that to believe mma is superior to any other form of training is a lie.

in all the disaplines that make up mma your telling you can learn all of it in a mere couple of months or yrs and be a super human fighter who is prepared for anything that comes there way..

Except for someone who is a total expert in one field, in which case then said individual can hope they put that person at a disadvantage by using there basic understanding of a counter.

wing chun focus on in-fighting grapplers want to take people down , kick boxers want to kick the shizzit out em . The person who really is a master of there range of fighting has a clear advantage to them in that range.. everywhere else its anyones game..so these guys who are okay at all the ranges but well arent exactly experts at any range these guys are the best huh..

IM sorry in my eyes it hasnt been proving, and well .

have you guys heard if it sounds to good to be true it probably is?

Men and woman have spent thousands of yrs hand to hand and weapon to weapon fighting.. you mean to tell me man was to inferiour to figure out how to use there body effectively.. and that just now we are finally realizing it..

I believe you have to modify your training for todays situations..but that doesnt mean abandoning principles that are sound because someone says so..


a example of my point is this .

everyone knows about finger jabs to the eyes.. lots of people even say that its not that dangerous.. well I personally no a person who went blind in 1 eye from such a strike. I dont blindly follow what people say. I also realize that there a billions of people in the world who respond,feel, react, train,believe differently..

in the end a well placed strike or lock for that matter will end a fight. regardless of the fighters style if he trains regularly and realizes what century we live in, then he or she stands a good chance against anyone.

because in real life you dont know me or what i do or who i am. and how can you be prepared for i dont even know what im going to do ?

alot of people dont like wing chun because of the way it is taught, because the emphisis is on SKILL . by this i mean timing,aiming,feeling,awarness, there are as many crappy mma schools as there are wing chun schools.

if you are going to a doctors office would you want someone performing surgery on you who studied alittle of everything or would you want someone who has the knowledge and skill to deal with yoru specific problem.

as a student and teacher i have learned one thing and that is patience.

practice hard, focus, love what you do then you can look in the mirror and be happy with what you see.

If all a person desires is to be able to defend themselves, anything that makes em more prepared to face there fears is better then nothing at all.

[air]

one more thing i dont disrespect any system of fighting nor do i disrespect any person.

alot of you guys seem to have all the answers, go to all these "so-called masters" go explain to them your theories , better yet go show em...

I agree mckwoon/mcdojo's are abundant its but they have there roll in society there are alot of fat people who could use some excercise.

[Ultimatewingchun]

You have clearly missed the logic to my points either by design or by an inability to put 2 and 2 together to make 4.

So when you wrote this, for example:

"wing chun focus on in-fighting grapplers want to take people down , kick boxers want to kick the shizzit out em . The person who really is a master of their range of fighting has a clear advantage to them in that range.. everywhere else its anyones game..so these guys who are okay at all the ranges but well arent exactly experts at any range these guys are the best huh.." (air)


***YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT, because the whole idea behind MMA training is to become PROFICIENT - as in very good - in ALL three ranges that were mentioned; namely standup, clinch, and ground.

[anerlich]

MOST of us dont have the luxury of being a suburb specimen of genetics

That's the second time. It's superb, OK?

rolling around on the ground in real life isnt a very safe tactic

In REAL life, you may not have a choice as to whether you end up on the ground or not. If you do, you'd better have some "tactics" to get out from under and back on your feet.

MMA is presented in most cases favors the stronger person

MMA the sport, yes. BJJ, which most people see as an integral part thereof, definitely not. BJJ is an art by which a smaller person with skill can defeat a larger person with less skill. This is about as true for BJJ as it is for Wing Chun.

Just about every Oriental MA makes claims of this nature. WC and BJJ are better than most, but there are limits to everything. No unarmed MA is going to help you stop a rampaging bull elephant or an opponent in a truck.

Smaller guys with skill have defeated bigger guys in MA (Royce v Shamrock and Severn, Nogiera vs Sapp, Genki Sudo v Butterbean, just to mention a few).

if you are going to a doctors office would you want someone performing surgery on you who studied alittle of everything or would you want someone who has the knowledge and skill to deal with yoru specific problem.

Generally you go to a GP first, and let HIM/HER decide if you need to see a specialist. BTW, most GP's will have studied A LOT MORE THAN A LITTLE of everything.

I don't see that this applies to fighting much, but in any case, if the guy hasn't seen a little of everything how is he going to know what your specific problem is? Would you go to a proctologist to ask about a knee reconstruction?

in all the disaplines that make up mma your telling you can learn all of it in a mere couple of months or yrs and be a super human fighter who is prepared for anything that comes there way

I don't think you can do that with Wing Chun or anything else. There are exceptions - Frank Shamrock went from unskilled to MMA world Champ in 18 months, but I have him on video readily admitting he is a genetic freak when it comes to training.

What was this thread originally about again?

[air]

ya i kinda that i spelled that word wrong to lazy to go back and fix that is bad grammer i apolagize