No Weights Workout

[JDK]

....As far as holding stances, that type of training builds up one's muscular endurance at that specific joint angle and a few degrees in each direction from that angle. Very little strength is accomplished with this, unless your definition of strength is the ability to hold the stance for longer and longer periods.

I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps ...3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only...they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion....Stance Training does increase strenth.

JD

[Oso]

I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps ...3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only...they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion....Stance Training does increase strenth.

JD

can you point to that study somewhere?


I've adopted a no weights program that I recommend to my beginning students. It's based on Workout #1 at www.trainforstrength.com

I think that for the average person, most especially the kung fu neophyte who has their head full of dreams of Bruce Lee, bodyweight exercises are the place to start because most of the time these newbies can't do a single set of 25 anything (pushups, hindus, bootstrappers) much less have any strength for pullups.

So, for this group of people aspiring to be martial artists BW will show raw strength gains as well as endurance. My experience over the last 2 years is if my students stick with the program they will plateau in raw strength in about 3-4 months and then they will only be increasing their conditioning. At that point, they can add weight training to their program.

[David Jamieson]

Tendon's cannot flex.



Your muscles don't care if they're contracting against iron, your own bodyweight, an opponent, or anything else. They know how to contract and relax. Nothing else.




Muscle 1: "Hey, tendons, wake up!!! This guy is doing body weight exercises!! You need to start strengthening!!"

Tendons: "Oh, geez, thanks man. We thought he was lifting weights and we were just going to sit here and not do anything."

Muscle 2: "Man, you guys sure are lazy."

hahahahahaha, now this is funny.
and it's funny because it's true.

bodyweight workouts are great, but they are not superior to anything. in fact the only thing that is superior is the correct v the incorrect. arguing for or against different effective exercises is silliness. The heeght of it. People that advise against the use of weights simply don't use them, have used them incorrectly and damaged themselves or are just plain talking out their ass.

advocates of weights who say they are superior are also talking out their ass. They are just another way of getting strength.

I personally prefer functional strength development or those types of stresses that develop strength in such a way that I can have optimal power while doing what I do. iE: to root, to push, to pull, to strike and so on.

[Crushing Fist]

I like BW exercises for one simple reason:

I always have the gear I need to do them.




I also enjoy extra body weights (vest, ankles, wrists) because I can do what I would normally do anyway, only weigh more doing it.

[GunnedDownAtrocity]

I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps ...3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only...they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion....Stance Training does increase strenth.

JD

yeah but thats like saying that doing squats will make me kick harder. it will help now doubt, but there is only so much carry over. if i really wanted to kick harder id kick a lot. weight training would supplament that.

also if that is a real test that woman would have been a terrible subject for it . her body had no base of strength to begin with if she was leg pressing 145lbs for sets of 10. it might not be all that bad for someone rolling off the couch to do them for the first time, but she certainly wouldnt qualify as a strength athlete so why use her as the subject. thats like taking a guy you work with who's weak as ****, testing his bench, having him do pushups for 6 months, and then concluding that pushups will add pounds to your bench press. all your'e proving is that if you take someone weak and make them exercise they'll get stronger.

[IronWeasel]

I hate jumping into these conrtoversial threads...but here goes:

I have done weight training AND tension exercises. The weights gave me the most mass increase (important for combat), and the most increase in strength for lifting.

The tension exercise gave me SOME strength and mass but it conditioned the target body parts (the ones moving, since everything is under tension).

By conditioned I mean it 'hardened' my forearms. This caused my forearms to be resistant to damage when struck, and they caused damage when they struck the arms of others. I would hold out my arm and people would beat my forearm with bats, staves, etc...as hard as they could. No damage...no bruising. Forearm specific weight training was unable to provide results like these.

Invaluable for blocking and striking. It also gave me a rock solid grip. Weight training is a good supplement to tension training, but not a replacement.

So, before the skeptics and bashers jump in and start poking fun...I'm not trying to sell you anything, or deceive anyone...I just want you to know that it works.

So if you doubt ANY of this post, then just DO the exercise for 2-3 months and prove it to yourself.

[David Jamieson]

I hate jumping into these conrtoversial threads...but here goes:

I have done weight training AND tension exercises. The weights gave me the most mass increase (important for combat), and the most increase in strength for lifting.

The tension exercise gave me SOME strength and mass but it conditioned the target body parts (the ones moving, since everything is under tension).

By conditioned I mean it 'hardened' my forearms. This caused my forearms to be resistant to damage when struck, and they caused damage when they struck the arms of others. I would hold out my arm and people would beat my forearm with bats, staves, etc...as hard as they could. No damage...no bruising. Forearm specific weight training was unable to provide results like these.

Invaluable for blocking and striking. It also gave me a rock solid grip. Weight training is a good supplement to tension training, but not a replacement.

So, before the skeptics and bashers jump in and start poking fun...I'm not trying to sell you anything, or deceive anyone...I just want you to know that it works.

So if you doubt ANY of this post, then just DO the exercise for 2-3 months and prove it to yourself.

dude...if i hit your forearm with a baseball bat at full force, i can guarantee you that no matter how tough you think your arm is, it will break.

[Knifefighter]

I know you were not responding to me direcly KF..but you seemed to have quoted from my thread, so I will respond.

A Group of physicians and Martial Artists decided around 1980 to do an experiment to prove or disprove the strength building claims of Stance Training

They used a 110 lb young women as the subject.

On the first day she was able to Leg Press roughly 145 pounds, 10 reps ...3 sets

After six Months of daily Stance Training Only...they re- tested her

She was able to leg press 225 lbs for 12 reps, 4 sets.

Their conclusion....Stance Training does increase strenth.

JD

LOL @ a "group of physicians and Martial Artists".

Their "conclusion" was far from anything close to what would be considered scientific support either for or against stance training.

Here are just some of the reasons:
- A "study group" of only one.
- No control comparison group.
- No statistical analysis.
- Not published in any peer reviewed scientific journal.

Taking a sedentary person and adding just about any kind of exercise will usually improve his or her strength in the beginning, no matter what the exercise.

[Knifefighter]

can you point to that study somewhere?

Of course he can't. That was not anything close to being scientifically valid.

[Knifefighter]

I would hold out my arm and people would beat my forearm with bats, staves, etc...as hard as they could. No damage...no bruising.

Bwahahaahahaha!!!

And people wonder why I think so many CMA guys are full of sh!t.

[Oso]

LOL @ a "group of physicians and Martial Artists".

yea, sounded just like those commercials for weight loss supplements.

Taking a sedentary person and adding just about any kind of exercise will usually improve his or her strength in the beginning, no matter what the exercise.

that's basically what I was getting at.

[Knifefighter]

So if you doubt ANY of this post, then just DO the exercise for 2-3 months and prove it to yourself.

Here's a better idea. Before someone wastes the next two to three months doing BS, pseudo-conditioning workouts, how about you post a video of someone hitting your arm full-force with a baseball bat.

[BlueTravesty]

I think it's cool that there are people trying to find more efficient ways to use calisthenics and bodyweight resistance excercises, but for raw large-muscle strength, weight lifting simply cannot be beat. No matter what funky position you put your body in, there will exist a greater amount of mechanical weight that can be put on that same large muscle group. This is why both body builders and athletes find common ground in weight training- though for different purposes. Athletes use it to supplement their training, isolating either one, or a group of large muscles to further develop those muscles. Bodybuilders isolate nearly each and every large muscle group so that they can, well, show that they have well-defined large muscle groups.

That said, my humble opinion is that BW exercise is important, but should be used for calisthenics, conditioning and endurance. Not only that, but you can work more muslce groups in unison using bodyweight excercises and better simulate less-than ideal conditions, such as being lopsided or off-balance. No matter how much weight you can lift on a machine or a barbell or dumbbell and how, the majority of the work being performed will still be on the larger muscle groups since they are working against symmetrical resistance (in most circumstances.)

In a nutshell, I believe they both have their value. Weight training is best for developing raw strength (few reps against heavy resistance) and BW is best for endurance (many reps against comparitively lighter resistance.) But that's just me.

[Knifefighter]

In a nutshell, I believe they both have their value. Weight training is best for developing raw strength (few reps against heavy resistance) and BW is best for endurance (many reps against comparitively lighter resistance.) But that's just me.

Weight lifting has one huge and overwhelming advantage over body weight exercises.

It is known as progressive resistance. Progressive resistance is what makes training with weights far superior to body weight exercises.

Your muscles, bones and tendons do not differentiate between body weight or outside resistance exercises. They only respond to loads and stressors.

Weight lifting allows you to vary the loads in almost any increment imaginable. Additionally, there is no limit to the maximum load that can be added. Body-weight exerercises are very limited in how much the loads can be varied and there is always a limit to the load that can be imposed, thus limiting the strength gains that can be achieved.

Progressive resistance is the key to maximizing strength.

Additionally, the loads imposed by weight lifting can be varied to emphasize endurance, hypertrophy, strength, or power.

[JDK]

Weight lifting has one huge and overwhelming advantage over body weight exercises.

It is known as progressive resistance. Progressive resistance is what makes training with weights far superior to body weight exercises.

"Different' rather than superior might be a better word.

Your muscles, bones and tendons do not differentiate between body weight or outside resistance exercises. They only respond to loads and stressors.

I must respectfully disagree. You are not taking into account..that loads and stressors [u]held for extended periods of time ( static Stances) develop the bones, muscles and tendons in a different way

Weight lifting allows you to vary the loads in almost any increment imaginable. Additionally, there is no limit to the maximum load that can be added. Body-weight exerercises are very limited in how much the loads can be varied and there is always a limit to the load that can be imposed, thus limiting the strength gains that can be achieved.

Progressive resistance is the key to maximizing strength.

All very true,,,however no one I have ever heard of or met stand for 5 minutes HOLDING THE WEIGHT IN A STATIC TENSED POSITION for 40 minutes , dividing the time up betweeen Bench Press, Curls, Overheads, Squats, etc...
This is the benefit Stance Training gives you. Holding a steady series of stances for 5 minutes each.
Weightlifting is done quicker...building strength and mass...but fails to build the same TYPE of usable flexable strength that Stances do

Additionally, the loads imposed by weight lifting can be varied to emphasize endurance, hypertrophy, strength, or power.

Like I said in my previous post...just do BOTH.
You wil then get the best of both worlds....

JD