BSL vs. SSSL: GeneChing's New Topic

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Apparently there were lyrics that were considered to be older versions of the one's that are in the Bak Siu Lum sets today. The older lyric for Tornado Kick for example was Phoenix Flies to Heaven. Double kicks were called Carp jumps over the Dragon's Gate. If Kanjiaquan is truly an older style that's related to Bak Siu Lum, one would expect to see some of these older lyrics used in the sets. None of them show up at all. Not only do none of the older lyrics show up, but none of the lyrics (besides maybe "tornado kick") are the same in either style at all, period.

Also, Yang Xiushan is known as one of the original teachers of Kanjiaquan. The Kanjiaquan people mention that Yang Xiushan was an older classmate of Kuo Yu Cheung's teacher, Yim Chi Wen. Apparently the Chinese characters used (Yan Yuqi) for Kuo Yu Cheung's teacher in their texts are different than the Chinese characters used for KYC's teacher (Yim Chi Wen) in other well known documents. Back then, a person could have up to three different names: Their birth name, their adult name, and the one people used to refer to them after they became famous. Yim Chi Wen had two with the other being Great Spear Yim. It is also well known that some schools try to attach well known heroes or famous masters to their style or school in order to promote it. I don't mean any disrespect to any Kanjiaquan practitioners out there, but I think that is the case here. It seems unlikely that Yim Chi Wen was a classmate of Yang Xiushan's. Even if he was the styles they're known for are considerably different.

It's possible that Kanjiaquan was taught in Yang Xiushan's curriculum along with other styles that included Bak Siu Lum but this doesn't prove it's the older style at all. It's been documented that Kanjiaquan dates back to the Yuan Dynasty. It was always told in Kuo Yu Cheung's lineage that BSL dates back to the Sung Dynasty (around 1100 A.D.) with its roots connected to the Five Mother styles, Hung, Wah, Cha, Pao and Hua. I know this will always be quite a stretch for many historians but, need I remind you, Shaolin temple was destroyed and it's monks either killed or scattered several times. In 1732 it was attacked and destroyed by Ching troops and in 1928 it's records were even more thoroughly destroyed and lost forever. Then there was The Cultural Revolution when a great many books and records outside the temple were burned and destroyed. Does it really seem all that far fetched that some of these styles that survived outside of the mainland do indeed date back to antiquity. I wonder if it's just blind nationalism that keeps people from questioning the "official" findings on these matters.

[GeneChing]

I must admit that I don't think there is much likelihood of lianbuquan having been in the temple for more than a few decades - its introduction into the BSL curriculum is also quite well documented (from a CMA point of view), and it does not really belong to that system in the same way as the 10 core sets.

We've discussed Lianbuquan:
Lian Bu Chuan (Lin Bo Kuen) History
BSL Lyrics: Lin Bo Kin

Personally, I've always felt there is a deep connection between BSL and Songshan Shaolin, but that's not based on history. It's based on practicing both systems. I've found that the others who have practiced both tend to agree. It's hard to explain as both systems are quite extensive.

[bawang]

gu ru zhang boxing is obviously from shaolin. it has the ying yang salute. but u guys arent arguing about that. u guys are arguing about which branch is older so you can claim some sort of superiority.

im from gu ru zhangs hometown. ive never heard of bak siu lum until i came to america. no one in his hometown does bak siu lum. he was a nobody. bak siu lum is insignificant. the most famous boxing from that region is pei county da hong quan.

kung fu from gu ru zhang's hometown was famous for SINGING while preforming forms. SINGING. bak siu lum has shaolin roots but is very flowery, AND has cantonese taint. u guys need to know your place.

*rubs testicles

[LFJ]

I've compared the forms and I don't see any resemblance at all!

If you see no resemblance between this Kanjiaquan set and the BSL sets then you are being voluntarily blind.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE1MTcyMzY=.html

The only set I saw that seemed to have a similar name was number 4 (Chum Sam or Strike to the Heart)

What about these?? They seem pretty similar to me!

Set 1

KJQ: Kaishan (open mountain)
BSL: Kaimen (open door)

Set 4

KJQ: Chuanxinchui (pierce heart hammer)
BSL: Chuanxin (pierce heart)

Set 7

KJQ: Meihuaquan (plum blossom fist)
BSL: Meihua (plum blossom)

Set 9

KJQ: Lianhuantui (linking kicks)
BSL: Lianhuan (linking)

It's been documented that Kanjiaquan dates back to the Yuan Dynasty. It was always told in Kuo Yu Cheung's lineage that BSL dates back to the Sung Dynasty (around 1100 A.D.)

The Shaolin Encyclopedia has Kanjiaquan in the Song Dynasty as well.

[David Jamieson]

gu ru zhang boxing is obviously from shaolin. it has the ying yang salute. but u guys arent arguing about that. u guys are arguing about which branch is older so you can claim some sort of superiority.

im from gu ru zhangs hometown. ive never heard of bak siu lum until i came to america. no one in his hometown does bak siu lum. he was a nobody. bak siu lum is insignificant. the most famous boxing from that region is pei county da hong quan.

kung fu from gu ru zhang's hometown was famous for SINGING while preforming forms. SINGING. bak siu lum has shaolin roots but is very flowery, AND has cantonese taint. u guys need to know your place.

*rubs testicles

LOL!!! YOu forgot to add the part about his command in the KMT and his untimely death at the hands of the communists. You also forgot how he was the trainer for the KMT during his time with them and that he had literally thousands of students by that merit alone. Furthermore, many great men have very humble beginnings, I'm sure your home town is filled with ignorant farmers, but they certainly don't have to stay that way, look at you! You are in a fancy foreign school getting a superior education. Things change in everyone's life. *counts money

If you see no resemblance between this Kanjiaquan set and the BSL sets then you are being voluntarily blind.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE1MTcyMzY=.html



What about these?? They seem pretty similar to me!

Set 1

KJQ: Kaishan (open mountain)
BSL: Kaimen (open door)

Set 4

KJQ: Chuanxinchui (pierce heart hammer)
BSL: Chuanxin (pierce heart)

Set 7

KJQ: Meihuaquan (plum blossom fist)
BSL: Meihua (plum blossom)

Set 9

KJQ: Lianhuantui (linking kicks)
BSL: Lianhuan (linking)



The Shaolin Encyclopedia has Kanjiaquan in the Song Dynasty as well.

open door and open mountain? The word open aside, there aren't similarities here.

Moi Fa is a name used in many kung fu styles that are completely unrelated. Hung Gar has a Moi Fah Kuen in some of it';s variants and so does CLF. the plum flower is symbolic of a lot of things and gets used in that way frequently.


the heart piercing... I would have to see the sets. I think it's been mentioned that they might bear resemblance to each other and that would be interesting.

Again, linked stepping sets are another common thing. Lin wan is also found in CLF and bears NO resemblance to the BSL set. Lin Bo is known to be separate from BSL and is considered a remnant of old shaolin dragon although I always thought it has more Crane flavour in the BSL way of doing it.

Shaolin certainly babysat a lot of styles and contributed greatly to the organization of systems and the maintenance of same. the distillation process is inevitable.

The qualities of the effect of shaolin on all chinese martial arts is seen in many similarities across virtually all styles.

[ShaolinDan]

If you see no resemblance between this Kanjiaquan set and the BSL sets then you are being voluntarily blind.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE1MTcyMzY=.html

I only know one BSL set (meihua), but I would have to agree with this...there are many similarities/overlaps between this above set and BSL meihua.

To look for relationships in styles, I would think it makes more sense to look at individual movements, more than sequences...

It's easy to change order of movements, not so easy to create new movements.

[David Jamieson]

here's bsl's moi fah.

the similarity is the "shaolin"

this is Kwong Wing Lam performing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNEfqP9SuDs

(there appears to be a strong "Hung" flavour in Lam's BSL compared to other practitioners of same)

[JamesC]

here's bsl's moi fah.

the similarity is the "shaolin"

this is Kwong Wing Lam performing it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNEfqP9SuDs

(there appears to be a strong "Hung" flavour in Lam's BSL compared to other practitioners of same)

I always thought that too David. He seems much more rooted than most northern guys and less extended in his movements. Less "Longfist", if you will.

[ShaolinDan]

the similarity is the "shaolin"

That may be... I'm not too concerned about the specifics of what came from where and when. For me it's enough to see the relationship, doesn't matter much where it came from...

(For what it's worth, our meihua is 'flavored' much more like the kanjiaquan set posted than the meihua set posted...same moves [mostly], but different energy/rhythm, etc.)

[Siu Lum Fighter]

Originally Posted by LFJ
If you see no resemblance between this Kanjiaquan set and the BSL sets then you are being voluntarily blind.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzE1MTcyMzY=.html



What about these?? They seem pretty similar to me!

Set 1

KJQ: Kaishan (open mountain)
BSL: Kaimen (open door)

Set 4

KJQ: Chuanxinchui (pierce heart hammer)
BSL: Chuanxin (pierce heart)

Set 7

KJQ: Meihuaquan (plum blossom fist)
BSL: Meihua (plum blossom)

Set 9

KJQ: Lianhuantui (linking kicks)
BSL: Lianhuan (linking)



The Shaolin Encyclopedia has Kanjiaquan in the Song Dynasty as well.

If it's number 7 then it's arguable that the beginning is similar. But, besides some moves that are common to almost all longfist styles, the structure and sequence is very different. In fact, that's the case with all the Kanjia forms. They're short and structured differently from the BSL forms. If you look at all of the BSL forms, you'll notice that they roughly run along two parallel lines with one or two lines connecting them like an I or H form. All of the Kanjia sets seem to use one line. It's as if someone wanted to break up the BSL forms and change the way the techniques were applied and add their own favored moves. Furthermore, why would the monks create 13 sets? 13 is not a significant number in Buddhism and isn't 10 the more common number we see in Buddhist related systems?

As far as the names go, it's just like I remembered, number four seems to be the only one with a truly similar name and even then there's an extra word (hammer). I'm not saying that the styles aren't related just like countless other styles under the Shaolin umbrella, they're just not as related as people are saying these days. They were obviously developed by different masters and to say that Kuo Yu Cheung made up Bak Siu Lum based on Kanjiaquan seems completely false. It may be theorized that both styles date as far back as the Song Dynasty, but there are no actual records from that time to prove this. So if you're going to state that Kanjiaquan is older and Bak Siu Lum was made up by Kuo Yu Cheung based on some flimsy evidence then I have to cry foul.

[LFJ]

open door and open mountain? The word open aside, there aren't similarities here.

Meanings are in contexts, not in words. The meaning is the same for both
expressions.

Kaishan (open mountain) taken literally (i.e. to cut into a mountain) means to open a mine. But this is only one context. In another it may mean to open a monastery.

Both expressions mean to establish something, or get something started; similar to "open doors" as an English idiom for making new opportunities. As the name of the first set in their series it marks them as the opening set for their system.

Kaishan (open mountain/ open monastery), being the name in the Kanjiaquan system, shows a monastic tie as it was developed at Shaolin Monastery. While Kaimen (open door), being the name in the Bei Shaolin system, is a more secular phrase as it was developed outside of Shaolin.

Moi Fa is a name used in many kung fu styles that are completely unrelated.....

the heart piercing... I would have to see the sets. I think it's been mentioned that they might bear resemblance to each other and that would be interesting.

Again, linked stepping sets are another common thing.

Of course, but the significance is not only the use of all these terms, but the precise placement of them within the two series of sets for KJQ and BSL.

Kaishan/men for both is set #1.
Chuanxin for both is set #4.
Meihua for both is set #7.
Lianhuan for both is set #9.

That's almost half of the series sharing practically the exact names for the same numbered set in the sequence.

[LFJ]

But, besides some moves that are common to almost all longfist styles, the structure and sequence is very different. In fact, that's the case with all the Kanjia forms. They're short and structured differently from the BSL forms.

I'll get to the structure in a minute, but I don't think it can be argued that the overall rhythm and flavor of the sets are not similar; not only visually are they similar, but if you practice both you will not be able to deny the similar feeling of the tempo and style of the sets.

If you look at all of the BSL forms, you'll notice that they roughly run along two parallel lines with one or two lines connecting them like an I or H form. All of the Kanjia sets seem to use one line. It's as if someone wanted to break up the BSL forms and change the way the techniques were applied and add their own favored moves.

All the old traditional sets from Shaolin Monastery "run on a single line". That's one of the characteristics of Shaolin Monastery boxing systems, whereas other regional folk martial arts have a structure more similar to BSL which breaks this characteristic. In BSL history this is because it was developed outside of Shaolin as an alteration of the KJQ system.

Furthermore, why would the monks create 13 sets? 13 is not a significant number in Buddhism and isn't 10 the more common number we see in Buddhist related systems?

Many Shaolin Monastery boxing sets have 2 roads or 5 roads. These are not particularly significant numbers in Buddhism either. This is a very weak attempt to place BSL at the Shaolin Monastery, or KJQ elsewhere. There are certain standards for what constitutes evidence or proof in regards to historical facts. This would be inconclusive or simply meaningless.

As far as the names go, it's just like I remembered, number four seems to be the only one with a truly similar name and even then there's an extra word (hammer).

If that is your standard, then what makes Meihua & Meihuaquan or Lianhuan & Lianhuantui any less "truly similar" than Chuanxin & Chuanxinchui??

I am thoroughly perplexed by this. Anyhow, the third character in the KJQ sets is basically generic (fist/ leg/ hammer). They can be dropped without the meaning really changing at all.

They were obviously developed by different masters and to say that Kuo Yu Cheung made up Bak Siu Lum based on Kanjiaquan seems completely false....

....So if you're going to state that Kanjiaquan is older and Bak Siu Lum was made up by Kuo Yu Cheung based on some flimsy evidence then I have to cry foul.

I'm not sure who this is addressed to, but I have never asserted such a thing.

In fact, I remember explaining to you previously how evolution works; with examples of apes and humans, and how the theory is not that just in one generation a couple apes give birth to a human. It is just as patently absurd and false to claim that Gu Ruzhang made up an entire system on his own.

You seem to have missed that part, but martial arts evolve in a similar fashion over centuries. What I said to you was that the system of BSL received by Gu Ruzhang had already undergone centuries of evolution, while the KJQ system continued in another line. Hence today we have two systems that share a root but that have evolved into unique systems that are of course not going to be exactly the same.

[David Jamieson]

THis is a hugely interesting topic, let's not let it degrade into a shouting match!
One can be assertive of course!

I am of the opinion that I would need to actually look at the sets. Because so far, I am not seeing the same thing in the songshan shaolin and the KYC bei shaolin.

yes, longfist styles across the board have similarities. Stances for instance and transitions from them. those are consistent.

sequencing and the practical techniques themselves though? I am not convinced that is true.

But hey, like anyone, what I don't know could fill a warehouse! A big one!

[sha0lin1]

THis is a hugely interesting topic, let's not let it degrade into a shouting match!
One can be assertive of course!

I am of the opinion that I would need to actually look at the sets. Because so far, I am not seeing the same thing in the songshan shaolin and the KYC bei shaolin.

yes, longfist styles across the board have similarities. Stances for instance and transitions from them. those are consistent.

sequencing and the practical techniques themselves though? I am not convinced that is true.

But hey, like anyone, what I don't know could fill a warehouse! A big one!

One of my students used to be a BSL practitioner. He has continued to train with what he learned there and from what I have seen, it looks very close to what we do. For instance the first staff form is almost exactly like Yin Shou Gun. The open hand forms are very long fist looking and although I am not familiar with them, they do have that Songshan flavor to them.

[Siu Lum Fighter]

OK let’s get this started again.

originally posted by LFJ
I'll get to the structure in a minute, but I don't think it can be argued that the overall rhythm and flavor of the sets are not similar; not only visually are they similar, but if you practice both you will not be able to deny the similar feeling of the tempo and style of the sets.

Sure, there might be a slightly similar feeling and style but that’s the case with many longfist styles I’ve come across. For instance, you can see a similar feeling and style in Prof. Jou’s Xiao Hongquan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4FT_ETpcOA). Actually if you look at some other videos of his you’d find that there’s probably more techniques that are almost exactly like Bei Shaolin’s than Kanjiaquan’s. Why don’t we just say that this Xiao Hongquan from Taiwan is directly related to Bak Siu Lum too while we’re at it? I still don’t get how a style that doesn’t have any of the same lyrics can be the pre-cursor to Bei Shaolin. It’s an insult to their lineage to suggest that either Kuo Yu Cheong or Yim Chi Wen made up Bei Shaolin.

All the old traditional sets from Shaolin Monastery "run on a single line". That's one of the characteristics of Shaolin Monastery boxing systems, whereas other regional folk martial arts have a structure more similar to BSL which breaks this characteristic. In BSL history this is because it was developed outside of Shaolin as an alteration of the KJQ system.

We’re talking about styles that have developed over centuries. Are you telling me that Kanjiaquan stayed within the Shaolin Monastery since the 1100 or 1200’s? Even after all of the invasions, wars, and strife in the region? After the temple had been burned down and destroyed and all of it’s monks either killed or scattered throughout the land on several occasions? Are we to assume just because of some vague and debatably misread reference to Yim Chi Wen in some old document (that is where this whole theory came from by the way) the Kanjiaquan style stayed alive and unmodified for over 8 centuries? Even when there was no functioning Shaolin Temple at certain times?

One of the main problem with this is that a general rule with these old Shaolin styles was that lineage Masters were allowed to add techniques to their favorite set but never subtract any techniques. They could do this provided that the new technique did not ruin the flavor or rhythm of the set, and did not interfere with the transitional techniques. This is why every ancient style of Chinese martial arts evolved into different branches over time. If this hasn’t happened to a style that’s supposed to be that old then it can only mean either that the masters who were the care takers for the style forgot parts of the original sets or that the sets are a recent creation within the last 100 years. The BSL forms do run on linear lines but they evolved over centuries to include other angles of attack just like Hung Gar and other Shaolin styles. Maybe all of these styles started on a single line but as one might notice with some other styles developed by the monks within the various temples throughout history they usually didn’t end up that way.

Many Shaolin Monastery boxing sets have 2 roads or 5 roads. These are not particularly significant numbers in Buddhism either. This is a very weak attempt to place BSL at the Shaolin Monastery, or KJQ elsewhere. There are certain standards for what constitutes evidence or proof in regards to historical facts. This would be inconclusive or simply meaningless.

Perhaps this is my own theory in this whole debate, but I still find it strange that there are so many Shaolin related styles that follow this 10 hand form structure and Kanjiaquan is the only one that I know of that has the odd number of 13. If lineage masters were allowed to add techniques then the number would have remained at 10. The monks wouldn’t have just added an extra 3 sets or established 13 as the number of sets from the beginning. Just look at how significant the number 10 is in Buddhism. There’s:

The “10 Precepts”
The “10 Hindrances to Enlightenment” (or the “Ten Fetters”)
The “10 Good Deeds or Meritorious Actions”
The “10 Powers of a Buddha”
The “10 Great Disciples”
And the Zen tradition has the ““10 Oxherding Pictures”

2 and 5 are also significant in Buddhism but you know what number doesn’t appear to have any particular significance and isn’t even mentioned in any scriptures as far as I’ve seen? That’s right, 13. My point is that there’s no question the significance of the number 10 is the reason so many Shaolin related styles have 10 core hand forms. So why would the monks make 13 forms for a style within their temple when they could’ve kept them at 10. Religion revolved around everything the monks did. They wouldn’t have done this.

I'm not sure who this is addressed to, but I have never asserted such a thing.

In fact, I remember explaining to you previously how evolution works; with examples of apes and humans, and how the theory is not that just in one generation a couple apes give birth to a human. It is just as patently absurd and false to claim that Gu Ruzhang made up an entire system on his own.

You seem to have missed that part, but martial arts evolve in a similar fashion over centuries. What I said to you was that the system of BSL received by Gu Ruzhang had already undergone centuries of evolution, while the KJQ system continued in another line. Hence today we have two systems that share a root but that have evolved into unique systems that are of course not going to be exactly the same.

At least you don’t think Gu Ruzhang made up Bei Shaolin but this was what was asserted by Sal Calzonieri and the people who originally claimed that Bei Shaolin came from Kanjiaquan. The root between the two is so obscured that it was easy for them to claim such a thing without ample proof. How convenient that after so many years of the PRC “standardizing” wushu and oppressing those who tried keeping the old traditions alive that they all of a sudden “discover” this ancient style in it’s untarnished form and claim it to be the forerunner to Bei Shaolin. Of course they would never just take our own lineage masters records at face value. They have to make up a whole new history now.