Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[chud]

However, if I were going to teach or perform it I would certainly go over it well ahead of time so it would be committed to short term memory so I would have to stop and figure it out at the seminar. I'm sure he could do this too but then you wouldn't have the great visual of a parchment with chinese writing.

Maybe I didn't explain it well before; he did not refer to this paper with the chinese characters as if he was trying to use it as a prop for dramatic effect. His suitcase was sitting in the back corner (he had just flown in) and once or twice during the seminar he referred to it as he walked by, but it wasn't done as a display and he never held up the parchment and said, "look I have this parchment which was given to me by my master". In fact he never mentioned it at all. It was something that me and one or two other people who were in this back part of the school saw sitting on his suitcase. I made a mental note of it because I appreciate chinese calligraphy and though it looked cool (I also thought it would be nice if I could get a copy of it, but didn't ask). Anyway, my impression of Master Sin was that he was a nice person and a sincere guy who cares about his students. As I stated previously I did not leave Shaolin-Do because of him, I left because I found another sifu who was exactly what I was looking for.

[Fei jiao]

Just a quick question. According to what I read about Shaolin-Do they have A LOT of forms, but it all seems to be forms from other existing systems, namely Tai chi, bagua, hsing yi (which have nothing to do with Shaolin by the way), praying mantis, drunken style, monkey style, hung gar etc...

Do they have their own forms or is it all forms collected from other systems?

[godzillakungfu]

Just a quick question. According to what I read about Shaolin-Do they have A LOT of forms, but it all seems to be forms from other existing systems, namely Tai chi, bagua, hsing yi (which have nothing to do with Shaolin by the way), praying mantis, drunken style, monkey style, hung gar etc...

Do they have their own forms or is it all forms collected from other systems?

Don't mix creation with having. Yes, Tai Chi Bagua and many other styles were created outside of Shaolin.

Shaolin-Do does teach mostly correct history and legends. We were never told Shaolin created these styles just that at some point they wound up in the temple.

[BentMonk]

It is absolutely hilarious. If GM Sin is a master of marketing fu and charlatan fu as some claim, his best trick to date is getting a large group of people who supposedly don't like him to do tons of free advertising for him. There are three active threads devoted to SD on this board right now. One is nearly 100 pages long. Now that's what I call exposure! Thanks guys! If GM Sin is all about the Benjamins, why isn't he rich? I have spent time with GM Sin in an informal setting many times. He is far too genuine a human being to be the snake oil salesman so many are certain he is. I am not some delusional, uneducated hick with a case of hero worship. I am very aware of the issues the MA community has with SD. Some are valid, others aren't. In this age of information saturation I find it arrogant and rude to catagorize all SD practioners as MA illiterate sheeple being herded away from their cash by GM Sin. Anyone with a computer and or a library can research their art of choice. I've done it, and so have many other SD practioners. I found enough information to support either side of the debate, but nothing that absolutely proved or disproved anything. I do find it hard to believe that a system as well known as SD obviously is, could survive 40 years and be fraudulant. If SD were completely fake, I'm sure some historian would have figured it out long before now. Meanwhile all of the endless debate does make for some entertaining reading. Peace and happy training to all.

[Judge Pen]

Just a quick question. According to what I read about Shaolin-Do they have A LOT of forms, but it all seems to be forms from other existing systems, namely Tai chi, bagua, hsing yi (which have nothing to do with Shaolin by the way), praying mantis, drunken style, monkey style, hung gar etc...

Do they have their own forms or is it all forms collected from other systems?

Yes, for example, and as far as I am aware, our Tai Pang system and our "Shaolin Bird" systems are unique to SD and have their own principles, footwork and theory of application.

[Invisible-fist]

OK, I can understand that you don't like SD, but I cannot understand why anybody would say that it is not CMA. It is clearly CMA. It uses CMA movements, CMA weapons, etc.

The infamous "tiger crane" video is clearly Hung Gar. Its badly performed, but it looks like Hung to me. (And I'm a Hung player)

What about the "Dragon" and "Monkey" forms...clearly Chinese.

I suspect the reason is because of the costume and the terminology, which is absurd. In China they train in tracksuits, fer chrissake.

[CaptinPickAxe]

Contrary to popluar belief, BentMonk. Controversy about history isn't the kind of press a school needs. The only type of notoriety worth having is that of being a bully school...at least then you can still whoop ass...The last thing a person reading all this is gonna think is, "Wow! The majority bash it, bring up reasonable arguements towards it, and most of the practioners are ignorant to proper fighting. I'M GONNA JOIN TODAY!!!"

'Tis a strange, strange world Shoalin-Do'ers live in...

[Ming Shan]

Jebus H. Christ. I can't believe this nonsense is still going on. I mean, come on, anybody who hasn't had a lobotomy can clearly see that Shaolin-Do is kempo-karate with a few "exotic" Chinese tidbits, marketed as CMA to American sheeple. It is not. This really isn't a matter of debate. The CMA community has some cohesion and most serious practitioners know who is who or what is what. Shaolin-Do has neither a lineage, nor is it recognized syste, neither in its elements, nor in its entirety.

Furthermore, most systems of CMA don't have hundreds upon hundreds of forms. Most classical systems have somewhere between 3 to 15 fist forms (sometimes more), not including single movements and weapons. The only system I can think of that has a bazillion forms is Choy-Li-Fut. It is an exception. But a quick glance at Shaolin-Do's syllabus...look at it this way, a serious student should be able to learn all the info a teacher has to offer. It should not take a lifetime to learn a whole system, between 10 to 30 years should be sufficient. Mastery is a lifetime venture...learning a system and its forms is not...

So to summarize, a glance at SD shows that it is kempo-karate with some odd names and forms, and not all the loyalty in the world will make it CMA.

Look at old photographs of CMA practitioners, and modern videos. SD does not resemble any CMA. Hsing-Yi, Bagua, TaiJi, Baji, Lama, Tang-Lang, Bei Shaolin, Sil-Lum, Hung-gar, etc, etc....

[Ou Ji]

Kenpo is Chuan Fa, Chinese Boxing. Kenpo is Chinese kung fu adopted into Japan. To say that Shaolin Do is not CMA because it's Kenpo makes no sense at all. If it really is Kenpo then that would prove it's CMA.

What is Northern Mantis a couple of generations after arriving in the US? Is it CMA? Is it still CMA if you add a few Judo throws you learned along the way?

Is Wing Chun CMA even though the WC in the US is way different than the WC in China? What is it in Indonesia?

When does it become something else?

And what CMA styles are NOT in SD?

And if SD gets into a fight in the woods would you hear it scream?

[kwaichang]

Well hail hail the gangs all here but nothing and everything is being said. Nothing is proven we are arguing and no one is winning. If an old man learned SD and went into the woods and added some "CMA" looking steps and said he was a Master would it be accepted as such " PROBABLY" well I have seen alot of KUng Fu and JMA and BMA and GMA and Boxing etc etc etc. so get over it you cant prove or disprove any thing stop wasting time what is the big deal anyway. I have always wanted to learn real Kung Fu like Kwai Chang Caine on TV was supposed to have but master PO does not exist does he ? that is when I started I wanted and still want to learn and am you are all just spitting into the wind I have been in SD for 14 yrs what ever it is it is good so go to where ever you go and train in the end the truth will be known and you wont be around to see it, KC

[Jarhead101]

Well, hey, at least the certificates are somewhat cool, with the dragons and all. Except the part that says: Sin The's KARATE Club

IN SD's defense, I hear Sin The's brother is actually a bad a$$ even compared to his brother, and they teach the same forms (for the most part anyway) so there would have to be some type of collaboration between the two to "make up" their forms - and I hear they don't speak much anymore. To me it means they both learned the ones they teach from a single source - maybe.

I was speaking to a long-time practitioner of the style, and he told me the double-dagger kata that is being taught in SD is incorrect all the way around, and that Sin made it up. Yes, ST's brother was the "bird Master" between the two, and there is a dagger form of the same name, but Sin never learned ANY of the bird material, he got it from his brother and apparently screwed it up once they broke apart. On that note his brother is teaching ALL the bird curriculum out, so it will not die when he does.

Oh, well. Who knows.

And yeah JP, it's me, YYD

[Jarhead101]

Before anyone asks, the "bird material" is as follows:

TAI PENG (BIRD)
Tai Peng Sin Kune/ Big Bird Opens Its Wings
Tai Peng Fan Che/ Big Bird Flips Its Wings
Tai Peng Chan Se/ Big Bird Spreads Its Wings
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Chan Se
Tai Peng Chein Wo/ Big Bird Builds Its Nest
Tai Peng Se Wo/ Big Bird Watches Its Nest
Tai Peng Pao Wo/ Big Bird Defends/Protects Its Nest
(Above 3 Kata Set)Tai Peng Pao Wo
Tai Peng Sao/ Yin Big Bird Sweeps the Clouds
Tai Peng Khe Yin/ Big Bird Cuts the Clouds
Tai Peng Wu Yin/ Big Bird Dances On the Clouds
Tai Peng Po Yin/ Big Bird Strikes Through the Clouds
Tai Peng Chuen He (Hur)/ Big Bird Aims/Stalks
Tai Peng Luo Tien/ Big Bird Desends/Drops From the Sky
Tai Peng Chua Chien/ Big Bird Claw
Tai Peng Kung/ Big Bird Attacks
Tai Peng Foo/ Big Bird Trap
Tai Peng Se/ Big Bird Vision
Tai Peng Ching/ Big Bird Spirit
Tai Peng Chien/ Big Bird Form

Most of this is NOT taught in SD, it's taught in The's brother's school.

And here's some more katas from the school:

THROWING DAGGERS
San Tien Tao/ Lightning Knife/Dagger
Nan Sing Tao/ Southern Star Knife
Pei Sing Tao/ Northern Star Knife
(Above-3 kata set) Swang Sing Tao Pair of Star Daggers
Yen Tao (Yen Ch� Fei Tao Tao)/ The SwallowÕs Path/Flight Dagger Form
Yen Luo Tao (Yen Ch� Luo Tien Tao)/ The Swallow Drops from the Sky
Yen Che Tao/ The Swallow Dagger
(Above-3 kata set) Yen Che Tao The Swallow Daggers
San Tao
Chiu Loong Tao/ Nine Faces Dragon Dagger
Tu (Du) Tao/ Poison Dagger
Swang Yen Tao (1pr) Pair of Swallow Daggers
Se Mien Tao (2 pr) Four Faces Swallow Dagger
San Tue Tao/San Tue Fei Tao (3pr) Three Pair Throwing Daggers
Pa Fang Tao (4pr) Eight Direction Daggers
Se Fu Tao (5pr) Trap of the Ten Daggers
Ie Ta Fei Tao (6pr) 12 Flying Daggers
Ying/Yang Chi Sing Tao (7pr) Seven Star Double Dagger
Ie Chien Yen Che Tao (8pr) Flock/Group Swallow Daggers
Fei Tao (9 pr) Throwing Daggers

DRUNKEN FORMS
Fung Wang Chuey Han Chien/ The Mad Drunk
Chuey Tao/ Drunken Broadsword/Knife
Chuey Kuen/ Drunken Bo
Chuey Chien/ Drunken Sword (double-edge)
Chuey Kai/ Drunken Beggar
Chuey Ho/ Drunken Monkey
Chuey Ku� Chuey Yin/ Drunken Ghost Chases The Shadow
Fung Wang Chuey Han Chien Tue Ta/ The Mad Drunk/ 3-Man Set
Chuey Hur Song Fa Chien/ Drunken Monk
Chuey Puo Tse (Che)/ Crippled Drunk

INTERNAL
San Njie Chien/ Three Unity "Iron Man" Form
Tie Ku Chang/ Iron Bone Palm
Ye Fei She Pa Tuan/ Ye Fei's 18 Continuous Positions
Yang Tai Chi Chaun/ Yang's Grand Ultimate Fist Form
Lee Chia Tai Chi Chuan/ Lee Family Grand Ultimate Fist Form
Pa Kua Chang/ 8 Direction Hexagonal Palm
Ie Ching Ching/ The Changing of the Muscle and Bone
Ching Kong Sow/ Golden Steel Fist
Tai Chi Chien/ Tai Chi Sword
Da Mo's (Bohidharma) Ie Ching

MISCELLANEOUS EMPTY HAND FORMS
Meng Sing SIng Chien/ Mad Gorilla Form
Pai Ho Pai Fu/ White Monkey
Wu Chin Sie/ Five Animal Linkage
Chie Chien/ Connecting Fist
Lian Wu Chang/ Five Direction Palm

Hehe, me being a "knife" guy I freely admit I'd love to see all the dagger forms. Anyway, enjoy!

[Scott R. Brown]

I will add a few more comments:

First to Golden Tiger,

You know I don’t care what you think and have little respect for your knowledge of anything, yet you follow me around trying to find continuous ways to insult me. GROW UP!! I saw you just had a b-day why not start acting your age. If my posts are too long for you stop reading them and then you won’t have to suffer! Or better yet continue to read them, give yourself and aneurysm and put us ALL out of our misery!

Personally, I have nothing against SD. I don’t care if the Super Galactic Grand Master made up his forms or not. He may start his own style if he wants. Clearly he has those that enjoy his style and want to learn his many forms regardless or how good or crappy they are. It is not unusual for a style to manufacture its lineage. It has been going on from the beginning of MA! A manufactured lineage is merely for the purposes of marketing however, and therefore creates the appearance of a lack of integrity. All MA were made up by someone and to think only the ancients have a right to make up something is foolishness! SD is here and many enjoy it and that is good enough for me!

In regards to Sin The:

I am not impressed with his demeanor or this humility as I have never met him so how much of a charlatan or saint he is, is beyond my knowledge. He may be a nice guy! However, I do have experience with another MA Super Galactic Grand Master that many thought was humble, thoughtful, insightful, old, wise, all-knowing, etc. and some still do! As I aged and learned more REAL MA the inaccuracies of his teachings and the simple-ness of them became very evident. His manipulation of this FLOCK became glaringly clear! So I am naturally skeptical of grandiose claims whether they come from a seemingly humble old man or a young brash big mouth! As they say appearances may be deceiving!

As any Master ages the administration of the style becomes the purview of his leading students and this may be where excessive marketing, political maneuverings and foolishness start to become evident to those on the outside looking in!

My complaint is about how the seminars are marketed (the sensationalist terminology) and how one must conveniently attend 2 previous seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist. If I wanted my school to learn it I would send one student to all 4 seminars and then just learn the Meteor Fist when my student got to it. In my opinion there is no reasonable reason to expect someone to attend 2 seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist and the fact it may or may not be a traditional method of teaching and learning is merely rationalization.

It is not unusual for a school to take care of its Master. This does have a long tradition in the MA of Asia. So I see no problem with his students buying him a car. The situation is, in these modern times (and I am sure in the “old” days as well), there are so many con men around people tend towards healthy skepticism rather than blind following!

[Invisible-fist]

Save for that there is NOTHING in Shaolin Do that looks like kempo.

Show me where SD does Dance of Death, or Five Swords of China, or even uses Kempo terminology like "doing it in the air" or "street sparring".

SD is clearly CMA, look at the dragon form, or the 8 drunken immortals, or the tiger crane. look at their weapons.

I have no problem if you want to say that SD is bad CMA, or a lousy lineage, or has suspicious history. Just don't tell me that it aint CMA.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Objective: Don't die! Avoid serious injury!

Action: Train in some set or system that improves the chances of meeting the objective.. i.e.: Martial Arts

Perspective: Individual points of view regarding personal likes and dislikes regarding various subjects like Martial Arts...

Personal Note: If the training works for the individual, regardless of its lineage or verifiable history, then the "perspective" has no bearing on the "action" or the "objective"..

If an SD fighter kicks my butt, i respect his skills.. regardless of where those skills originate.. if the skills are developed from made-up training systems AND they work.. great!!! that's how Kung Fu originated, somebody made it up...

So, Don't Die!!! Avoid serious injury!!! wear neat Chinese stuff, and call it Kung Fu.. that's how it all started...

Be well...