Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[Judge Pen]

Okay, I guess the entire conversation is lost on you. My bad.

Maybe. I just think that you've made up you mind and all of your thought comes from a place where then end is decided; SD is pointless. I suppose I'm guilty of the same, but I'll concede it's different.

[Crushing Fist]

Longfist techniques are usually from the Shaolin manuals, and they don't usually include a lot of short techniques (hence the name, long fist).

I'm not trying to be all-knowing. I haven't had experience with every style. But I don't consider that Hua set pure long-fist from what I've come across so far.

Chángquán (Chinese: 長拳; literally "long fist") is a general term for external (or internal) Northern Chinese martial arts (like the term Emei in some cases).

This includes:

Pào Chuí (Chinese: 炮捶; literally "cannon punch") pre-Tang Dynasty
Shàolínquán (Chinese: 少林拳; literally "Shaolin fist") c. 6th century
Chāquán (Chinese: 查拳; Cha Yuanyi style) Tang Dynasty (618–907)
Tàizǔ Chángquán (Chinese: 太祖長拳; Emperor Taizu long fist) Song Dynasty (960–1279)
Fānziquán (Chinese: 翻子拳; literally "tumbling fist") Song Dynasty (960–1279)
"red fist" Hóngquán (紅拳) Song Dynasty (960–1279)
"flood fist" Hóngquán (洪拳) 13th century
"Chinese fist" Huáquán (華拳) Tang Dynasty (618–907)
"flower fist" Huāquán (花拳) c. 1700


looks like the "shaolin long fist" is just one of many in what is a very broad category to me.

why would they do it the same at Hua Shan as they do at Song Shan?

which "shaolin manuals" are you referring to?

[Judge Pen]

Longfist techniques are usually from the Shaolin manuals, and they don't usually include a lot of short techniques (hence the name, long fist).

I'm not trying to be all-knowing. I haven't had experience with every style. But I don't consider that Hua set pure long-fist from what I've come across so far.

Then you shouldn't speak of what you don't know. Masterkiller and Brad both posted links that speak of the history and development of Hua that independent of the temple in Henen. Maybe, just maybe, its different than what you are accustomed to.

But, to look at it another way, Why hit the surface of a target when you can go through a target? The technique is still long, but the path it travels can be from different distances. From what you've said, I don't think you have a very strong foundation in any long-fist and you've certainly never seen hua chuan before.

[neilhytholt]

Maybe. I just think that you've made up you mind and all of your thought comes from a place where then end is decided; SD is pointless. I suppose I'm guilty of the same, but I'll concede it's different.

No, I think you're just getting very defensive. I'm just talking about it, because I know very little about it. A curriculum list and somebody else's form and some talking doesn't tell you very much about a school. It doesn't tell you how it smells, it doesn't tell you how good the senior students are, it doesn't tell you the emphasis (maybe there's some reason they teach this later), etc. etc. etc.

Basically I still know very little or next to nothing about Shaolin-Do.

[neilhytholt]

Then you shouldn't speak of what you don't know. Masterkiller and Brad both posted links that speak of the history and development of Hua that independent of the temple in Henen. Maybe, just maybe, its different than what you are accustomed too.

But, to look at it another way, Why hit the surface of a target when you can go through a target? The technique is still long, but the path it travels can be from different distances. From what you've said, I don't think you have a very strong foundation in any long-fist and you've certainly never seen hua chaun before.

Okay, whatever. As somebody once said, distinctions are for beginners.

[neilhytholt]

Then you shouldn't speak of what you don't know. Masterkiller and Brad both posted links that speak of the history and development of Hua that independent of the temple in Henen. Maybe, just maybe, its different than what you are accustomed to.

But, to look at it another way, Why hit the surface of a target when you can go through a target? The technique is still long, but the path it travels can be from different distances. From what you've said, I don't think you have a very strong foundation in any long-fist and you've certainly never seen hua chuan before.

I have manuals of the Shaolin fighting techniques, some of which were passed to Japan, and many of those techniques in that partner form are in those manuals. The big ones. In addition to that, many techniques are recognizable from shorter systems of fighting.

There's nothing new in that partner form or in the form #3 or whatever, is the bottom line.

[Judge Pen]

Okay, whatever. As somebody once said, distinctions are for beginners.

And yet, you were making the distinction between what is adavanced and what isnt'. What looks like long-fist and what doesn't.

As far as being defensive. Guilty. SD is one of the most controversial styles out there (for a lot of very good reasons and a few very bad ones), so I'm used to getting challenged on it alot. Sorry if I came off to intense there.

"In the beginner's mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few." - Shunryo Suzuki-Roshi

[Judge Pen]

I have manuals of the Shaolin fighting techniques, some of which were passed to Japan, and many of those techniques in that partner form are in those manuals. The big ones. In addition to that, many techniques are recognizable from shorter systems of fighting.

There's nothing new in that partner form or in the form #3 or whatever, is the bottom line.

Wow, you mean the people in China incorporated other styles into their own?

And a manual may show a couple of techniques, but as your Pi Chuan example, there are thousands per move if you have the perspective to see them.

[Crushing Fist]

neil,

basically 3rd black is like halfway to being a full master. so in this sense these would be considered intermediate forms. the difficulty in them is mostly athletic and memory (they get confusing when you have 4 roads and 2 two man sets)

some of what may be considered "more advanced" techniques are taught sooner, perhaps to give the student longer to work on these more subtle and sophisticated moves (like Hsing I and Pa Kua)

I know what follows in 4th is a blend of way more athletic (Li Ti Quai) with the subtle (Yin Yang Dagger, Chen Tai Chi)


on yet another side note, one of the plusses to Atlanta is that I already have several of the 4th degree forms they are in our "Tai Chi Program"

I need all the advantages I can get

now if I could just get the aerial cartwheels and forward "headsprings" down

[Crushing Fist]

I have manuals of the Shaolin fighting techniques, some of which were passed to Japan, and many of those techniques in that partner form are in those manuals. The big ones. In addition to that, many techniques are recognizable from shorter systems of fighting.

There's nothing new in that partner form or in the form #3 or whatever, is the bottom line.

who said anything about any of it being new?

I was under the impression it was all quite old.

perhaps (just guessing) one of the mutations long fist went through when it was brought to Hua Mountain was to include more short range techniques from other styles in the area, in order to give the style more "balance" or what have you.

"nothing new" .... there are only so many ways the human body can move

there is going to be some overlap

[neilhytholt]

And yet, you were making the distinction between what is adavanced and what isnt'. What looks like long-fist and what doesn't.

And you were accusing me of being a beginner, so I was just agreeing that you're probably right.

But that stuff is totally long fist, big techniques, big kicks, etc. more characteristic of the northern Shaolin styles and long fist. I was expecting something more like LHBF is all.

(I shouldn't say totally ... mostly)

[Judge Pen]

But that stuff is totally long fist, big techniques, big kicks, etc. more characteristic of the northern Shaolin styles and long fist. I was expecting something more like LHBF is all.

(I shouldn't say totally ... mostly)

Well Hua is not as old. It no doubt evolved from some of the older roots and become a more complete system of Long fist: incorporating more diversity in its techniques to compensate for other LF systems' weaknesses.

[Brad]

Some sort of longfist is often taught to beginers at some schools not just because of the athleticism it develops, but also because often longfist systems take a bit of a "jack of all trades" aproach with fighting technique, not really specializing in any one area. It gives you decent skill in punching, kicking, locking, and throwing before moving onto something more specialized.

Most longfist styles get their names not because of specializing in long range attack, but because the stances, kicks, and punches are all extended beyond normal in the form work. It provides a tougher workout, more flexability, and it's easier to "punch through" a target when aplied. In actual application you'd train to tighten things up too (otherise you'd be screwed if someone got in close ).

[Brad]

Also, longfist styles aren't "beginer" or "advanced". They both If it's only used as beginer material or only advanced material then odds are you're missing something from the system. Of course if it's just an add on you're doing to enhance an aspect of your training, you can do whatever the heck you want with it

[neilhytholt]

Also, longfist styles aren't "beginer" or "advanced". They both If it's only used as beginer material or only advanced material then odds are you're missing something from the system. Of course if it's just an add on you're doing to enhance an aspect of your training, you can do whatever the heck you want with it

It's beginner compared to taiji, that's for sure.