Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[EarthDragon]

judge pen, you said

[. In the past GMS and his brother Hsiang has refused to teach certain material because no one could do the underlying training necessary to learn the material.[/B]LOL. you can't be serious about this sare you Judge?

I am getting a kick out of this thread. We have a school in the Mckinley mall called
karate -Do

the owner and his teachers are all korean, they wear southern chinese frog button silf uniforms and call thier forms kata. and thier teachers Sifu's
LOL its a joke. this sounds to be the same but better marketed and modified to fool more people.

[Judge Pen]

Yes at one time they didn't teach out material because people couldn't do the fundamentals required for that material. I didn't say it was that way now. I think too much material gets taught. ED, if you want to take the time to go back and read all of my posts on SD, you will see that I have a critical eye of my own style and many people who practice it. Having said that, I think that if the material is taught correctly, drilled correctly, and learned correctly, it is a very effective martial art.

It's frustrating because much of the stuff that is pointed out as bad is bad. I know it, everyone here knows it, and most people in SD know it. The thing is, individual teachers attempting to market their school obviously don't see it because 95% of the video I see on the web of SD is average SD at best. Most of that is pretty freaking bad. That is normally an internal matter about people learning material that they can't realistically do (which I have several forms with moves in them that I can't physically do--but I'm working on them--I just don't demo them as a good form). However, with the exposure that SD has in the advent of the internet, internal matters are now publicized (especially when they are put out there for consumption).

I'm all about people doing the best that they can. I'm not a naturally gifted martial artist or athlete. I get buy and work hard. But I'm not putting videos of myself and saying "This is good SD!" I'm more than willing to video myself, but all I'll say is "This is the best that I can do."

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Golden Tiger,

Once again you have missed the point!

I never said forms were not worth learning. My skepticism is raised when I read a shameless marketing ploy! I enjoy forms and find benefit from doing them. I don’t rely on others to give them to me. I make my own.

There are only so many ways a body moves, therefore only so many actions it may perform. There are a specific number of chokes, pressure points, punches, strikes, throws, etc. There is nothing in any form that presently exists that hasn’t been done before somewhere at sometime and therefore there is no specific form that is better than another. Each form may focus on a different aspect of training, but they are not unique to Shaolin-Do! Forms do serve a purpose, but to use marketing ploys to attract participant’s smacks of commercialism. Once commercialism is present one must question the motives of the sponsors! Maybe they have pure intentions, maybe they don’t. I am skeptical!

The original post by Jarhead101 states the Meteor Fist Form “…is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts.” First of all internal arts are not designed to be aggressive. Yes, they may possess subtle aggressive actions, but they are internal because they are not outwardly aggressive. Those are external arts! Aggresiveness reduces the effectivenss of an internal form! Second of all the students are meant to be awed by the fact it is the 4th highest form! This is intended to bring a sense of awe and uniqueness to the seminar and designed to attract participants! This is commercial manipulation.

If a student is truly a participant of the Shaolin-Do they would not need such commercial manipulations to attract them to a seminar. All it would take is a simple announcement that the master is holding a rare seminar to teach the Meteor Fist!! Sensationalism is designed to attract more participants for the purpose of making money. A respectable Master does not need to resort to such antics. His quiet actions speak for him!

Neither of these statements would impress a MA who has been training as long as I have unless he has an emotional investment in the style. That is political or social status to maintain or one in which he wishes to attain. If an individual just wants to learn a new and interesting form that is fine. But don’t think it is anything special, because it is not. If you think it is, fine, I don't! You are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine! Something is not special just because someone in authority says it is. In this circumstance special is for the young and inexperienced, not the educated, and experienced!

The fact that requiring two other seminars to learn other forms prior to the SUPER SECRET form is a common practice only means that it is a common method of creating a cash income, not that it is appropriate or reasonable! It is not different than any other form of commercialism. Create a need and then charge to fulfill that need! The need in this case is manufactured and required and then rationalized as necessary to give foundational information or to prove worthiness or to demonstrate commitment etc. All this is BS! It is manipulation for the purposes so bestowing or gaining status and to make money!!

Maybe I am wrong! I have been around for a long time, so I don’t think so! If someone wants to learn the forms and to pay for them fine. Go to it! Have fun and give it your full commitment! That doesn’t mean it is not commercial manipulation, but neither does it mean your time is wasted. But don’t think you are learning anything special either.

If you want something special, I will create a form for you myself and you can be one of only two people on the planet who know MY super secret form. Then you can feel special!!

[Mortal1]

Scott R. Brown

Another great post!


"I am a fan sir!"--- Cousin eddy when he meets Wayne Newton in Vacation 3.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Scott, you usually make good points, but your posts are so long.

Anyway, I agree that the marketing that announced the form is a bit much. As I said in my first post in this thread, I'm curious about this form and I have been for a while.

Aggression in internal arts: I see your point, but I would point out that the marketing said it was the most aggressive internal art, but it did not say that aggression was the key to the art. As you said, internal arts can be very aggressive (Hsing-Ie). So stating that it is aggressive (or the most aggressive) could be a statement of fact not intent.

Personally I want to see what the big deal is (no matter how the announcement took form), but I don't have the intention to go to Lexington and learn the seminar. Maybe someday I'll learn all this extra material, but right now I have enough to work on. I took one seminar over the past three years to learn an extra-form. Seminar forms just aren't my thing. If this material is ever taught again by my teachers then I'll learn it then, and at my own pace.

[Ou Ji]

If you want something special, I will create a form for you myself and you can be one of only two people on the planet who know MY super secret form. Then you can feel special!!

Cool, where do I sign up? It has to cost at least $500 or it's not worth the trouble of learning.

[Judge Pen]

Oh I noticed that neither the Texas e-mail or the announcement on the SDA site say that the form is invincible or super-secret. That commentary was added by jarhead 101.

Hey, does anyone know what happened to the former poster YingYang Dagger?

[MonkeySlap Too]

Oddly enough I don't begrudge Sin The' his model f teaching, or any desire to be paid for services rendered. Only in America, bastion of free market economics, is the tme of the teacher viewed as something that should be given for 'free.'

JP is a pretty honest guy - so I can't fault him. The issue one should consider is NOT the seminar structure, or the prerequisites (I have prerequisites in how I teach, how can't you?). The real question is "How does anyone develop any real skill this way" and "Does Sin The' have any real skill in these dozens of systems?"

He is probably a not bad Karate/modified CMA guy. But it's not CMA, and certainly not historic CMA - despite the claims of SD the traditional skills are still alive in China, despite the rise of modern wushu. The SD we've al seen, even from Sin The' is laughable when compared to say, any of the orthodox Preying Mantis schools, or god help us, IMA.

If it wasn't for the wild claims and the goofy patches, they would probably be left alone.

I've met some SD experts. I really didn't think much of thie skills. The 'Qin Na' skills were JMA. The training methods and strategies were JMA. The forms were... silly CMA. But boy, they were in GREAT shape.

Well you can't judge a system entirelly by a few meet n' greets, but where there is smoke...

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi JudgePenn,

Yes they are long, I apologize. Blame my years of writing philosophy papers wherein you are required to write in complete thoughts.

I am not intending to be critical of anyone in Shaolin-Do or anyone who wishes to participate in the seminars. I am being critical of the manner in which the seminar is advertised and the seeming blatant commercialism. I understand commercialism is not uncommon in the MA. However, it IS contrary to my sense of appropriateness. To me the quieter and more humble the school the more I respect it! Even if I don’t like the particular style I can respect the honor and humility of the teachers!

My criticism of the word “aggressive” is in the choice of the word and its implication, not the relativity of the Meteor Fists aggressiveness in comparison to other internal styles. The word implies characteristics that are opposed to the underlying principles of internal arts. Thus it must have been chosen as a provocative term designed to create sensation which is a commercial motivation. From your description it seems it would be more appropriate to describe it as a “Dynamic” Form! An aggressive attitude when performing an internal art reduces the ability to generate internal power, dynamism does not!

Hi Ou Ji,

I take the opposite view! If it isn’t free it isn’t worth knowing! I would only consider paying to defray costs not to provide profit!

[Judge Pen]

The 'Qin Na' skills were JMA. The training methods and strategies were JMA. The forms were... silly CMA. But boy, they were in GREAT shape.

Well, I'm glad they were at least in shape. I've met some that weren't.

My finacee' started training to get in better shape and to spend more time with me. When I told her one of the criticisms of the style she was going to learn is that many people think it is haevily influenced by JMA she asked "what's wrong with that?"

Of course she is japanese. . . .

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi MonkeySlap,

If one has been training in any Art for 10 or 15 years and still hasn’t acquired enough of a foundation to learn the Meteor Fist it would seem to me there may be some deficiency in the curriculum. If on the other hand the foundation can be learned in two easy seminars then why haven’t they been taught before? If anyone may attend including white belts, it seems that it can’t be anything like learning to fall before you learn to throw, or learn to perform a front kick before a crescent kick! In my examples you can see a clear connection as to how one comes from the other. But not in the case of learning two forms before the Meteor Fist when it is available to anyone who attends!

Perhaps a beginner would not understand all the implications and applications of the Meteor Fist, but he is apparently still capable of learning it, therefore it seems unnecessary to be required to attend previous seminars! We must conclude there are commercial reasons.

I don’t fault anyone per se for wanting to make money, I do find fault in blatant commercialism designed to manipulate others into thinking they are learning something special. I will accept JudgePenn’s report that SD website is not promoting the form as super secret.

And finally to reiterate:

I have nothing against Shaolin-Do! I might even like some of the forms. I am criticizing apparent sensationalized commercialism to attract people to a seminar that is all! To me is just one step away from cutting cucumbers off someone’s throat with crappy sword techniques. Dignified arts don’t need to resort to such antics! (I am not saying Shaolin-Do is not dignified. I don’t know one way or the other. But this sort of e-mail makes it appear so!)

[Judge Pen]

I will accept JudgePenn’s report that SD website is not promoting the form as super secret.

Let's be clear, this is a form that has never been taught by SD, but I was referring to the subject of the thread saying it's SuperSecret and invincable. It said neither.

As for pre-requisites, my understanding is that this is common and traditional. You must learn 5 roads before you learn the linkage set. Not that you couldn't learn linkage first, but it's just not done that way. It builds a foundation first.

So maybe I, with more than a few years expericenc, could learn this set and grasp the fundamentals. Maybe I couldn't (who knows?) but if that was the way it was designed to be taught, then that's they way it will be shared.

But hey, if it also allows for more money, we are in america.

[Scott R. Brown]

Let's be clear, this is a form that has never been taught by SD, but I was referring to the subject of the thread saying it's SuperSecret and invincable. It said neither.

Yes, I understood your intent. My intention was to state I accept your report based upon my trust in your integrity and therefore do not feel the need to verify the facts for myself.

As for pre-requisites, my understanding is that this is common and traditional. You must learn 5 roads before you learn the linkage set. Not that you couldn't learn linkage first, but it's just not done that way. It builds a foundation first.

I understand this to be the case as well! I just don't agree with it! It may be rationalized as tradition, but that does not make it necessary or appropirate and as you say it has the attending benefit of creating greater profit!! Which to me makes the motivations suspect and less than pure.

In many facets of life I am an idealist! I reject some forms of tradition while other forms of tradition I adhere too! I have reasonable purpose for following the traditions I do and do not blindly abide questionable behaviors that appear to bestow status or monetary benefits while being disguised as tradition!

[Juan Alvarez]

Mind if I take a shot at this?

On Shaolin-Do:

I used to study in a Shaolin-ized version of vietnamese wing chun. Now, though it was pretty much unorthodox approach to wing chun (5 animal sets, hard qi-gong, etc.) the system was complete in its own way. The people that train there are serious and some of the toughest mofos I've seen. The problem is that it is packed, labeled and sold as "The Original Wing Chun, true lineage of the Shaolin Temple (TM)" and, of course, priced as such. Now, if you want to believe in something like that and you have the money to invest in such schools, well go right ahead! You will learn many forms, get in great physical shape and feel good about yourself. What you will not get is the system they are selling you. It is not CMA, plain and simple. And you can work the forms as much as you wants, it will not become CMA over time... Unless you study under a CMA teacher.

Judge Pen : "When I told her one of the criticisms of the style she was going to learn is that many people think it is haevily influenced by JMA she asked "what's wrong with that?""

Nothing, really. Just don't call it Traditional Chinese...

On Meteor Fist Form:

WTF is that? Does anybody have some info on this? I presently study Xing-yi and have never heard any such thing as an internal art called "Meteor Fist Form". Call me ignorant!

“…is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts.”

Have they ever seen Xing-yi in action?

"First of all internal arts are not designed to be aggressive. Yes, they may possess subtle aggressive actions, but they are internal because they are not outwardly aggressive." - Scott

Have you ever seen Xing-yi in action? Of course, agression is not the intended principle behind the art, but the result is nothing else!

Juan

[Judge Pen]

Judge Pen : "When I told her one of the criticisms of the style she was going to learn is that many people think it is haevily influenced by JMA she asked "what's wrong with that?""

Nothing, really. Just don't call it Traditional Chinese...

Assume, for the sake of argument, that the material is CMA, but the training methonds, power generation was mixed and influenced with JMA and IMA. In that case it is all of the above-- which makes it a unique thing in and of itself. I understand and agree with your point. I try to not get caught up in history and lineage as much, but I do like to know where things come from. . . . which brings me here:

On Meteor Fist Form:

WTF is that? Does anybody have some info on this? I presently study Xing-yi and have never heard any such thing as an internal art called "Meteor Fist Form". Call me ignorant!

“…is the 4th, highest and most aggressive of the internal arts.”

Have they ever seen Xing-yi in action?

I have not heard of it outside of SD; however, there are more than just three internal styles (xing yi, bagua and taiji) there's styles like bajiquan and mizong that express themselves as an internal art to some degree. Until I learn this Meteor Fist set (and I may never learn it) I'll not really know if other poeple have something similar (and call it something different) or if it is something unique to SD. One would think that other people would have it if its origins are traditionally chinese.

"First of all internal arts are not designed to be aggressive. Yes, they may possess subtle aggressive actions, but they are internal because they are not outwardly aggressive." - Scott

Have you ever seen Xing-yi in action? Of course, agression is not the intended principle behind the art, but the result is nothing else!

I think that is where Scott and I eventually ended up agreeing. Not the intent but the result.