Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[Judge Pen]

ALL moves in a form shuold be done as if you had both wrists grabbed by someone, when you do this you will see that what once was a sequence of punches and kicks in a form is ONE short and fast takedown manuever.

I can say that many of the applciations that are taught in our forms start under a this premise.

[Golden Tiger]

By the way, not one form in SD curriculum is seen in the Shaolin De Quan.
Nor are they mentioned there in the text under lost forms.

Not exactly correct.....I think there are 3 forms in there.....

[Sal Canzonieri]

No I don't think so. Your first guess sounds closer to the mark.

Is this encyclopedia avaible for public review?

Yes, it is now out of print, but you can still find some copies, it is thousands of pages (in chinese). Every form still know, not lost over time, is shown in the books, empty hand, weapons, self defense, two person forms, etc, etc. History of Shaolin and all it's best known teachers and fighters are in VOlume 1.

Go here and see if you can still get one:
http://earthworks.com/shaolin/encyclopedia/

[Sal Canzonieri]

Not exactly correct.....I think there are 3 forms in there.....

oh, I don't know every single form that SD teaches, what forms are they?
thanks

[Golden Tiger]

oh, I don't know every single form that SD teaches, what forms are they?
thanks

21.Shao Lin monkey fist..................383
22.Shao Lin seven stars and mantis fist..........389
23.Shao Lin white ape and mantis fist...........395





JP...MAIL

[Judge Pen]

I would wager that all of our material under 1st black wouldn't be found in those encylopedias. Some of our upper-rank material may be, but even then we don't claim that the majority of our material came from Henan.

GT, thanks. Just breezing thorugh generally I recognize mroe than just three form names. but what's a name, right? You can call a mule a racehourse, but that doesn't make him Secretariat.

[Ou Ji]

Obviously you can't go by form names.

I follow these discussions but really don't follow all the SD history debates but I thought the claim was that the hairy face monk (what's his name again?) was the source of all the forms. That letter seems to suggest that Ie Chang Ming travelled around collecting up all the material.

So now I'm really confused.

[chud]

There is a style called Meteor fist, it is from a temple outside of Shaolin.
It can use Leopard as a base, if Leopard is seen as internal.

If you could share more information about this style I would be interested in hearing it.

My guess is that the THE brothers learned something in Indonesia, something that was once based on CMA and over time changed into something else.

If their schools had never said they were teaching pure CMA, then people would have accepted what they taught as just what it was, an Indonesian martial art that had its roots in southern CMAs. Fine.

That makes perfect sense and is actually the most reasonable thing I have heard thus far in this discussion.

After judging tournaments for years and doing research for years and talking to old (anyone over 70 years old that I could find) masters, I have hardly seen many schools emphasis correct body mechanics, unfortunately

Interesting. Could you expand on this a bit by giving some examples? For example, how would a punch or a kick be thrown in a form using correct body mechanics as opposed to the sloppy way you say it is usually done?

[David Jamieson]

I can hardly wait until I'm into my 70's or so and the lineage debates rage in teh SD camp.

You know, laughter makes you live longer and all that.

[Brad]

I'll show you my Golden Tiger Form if you show me yours. Serioulsy, the Golden Tiger Form has a long-fist feel to it, but I can assure you it did not come from Ohio. It was learned in Indonesia fairly recently (well 12-15 years ago).

Like I said, he may of stolen it from Shaolin-Do somehow I first saw it about 10 or 11 years ago... I never learned it though, and only saw it demonstrated once or twice He was good at conning other teachers into "exchanging info", and copying forms off of video (comercial or taped himself)... then claiming the forms as his

[Jarhead101]

Hehe, see, without my help you guys wouldn't be getting all this great info

[shadowlin]

I swear, it's like the blind playing bumper cars in this place.

Golden Leopard is needed to be able to perform the Meteor Fist correctly, not just because he felt like making some requirements. This idea that he should teach it for free is so ludicrous. At one time he tried to teach for free, and no one came... this was in 1964 before most of you were born... and then he charged twice what he thought he should and he couldn't fit everyone in the gym. It's an American attitude. Furthermore... this is how he eats and lives... I think that's fair. Lastly, I'd pay a lot more to learn this material, so I'm glad it's this cheap. Better than spending it on transient, useless things such as movies or video games.

You people need to understand that while most of you weren't even alive, and the rest hadn't even heard of Shaolin, EM Leonard and others were begging Grandmaster Sin to teach Meteor Fist, after he'd taught out Hsing Ie, another style Americans didn't popularly know of till much later. This was before Jet Li had become a major star, let alone before the movie making Shaolin famous came to America. Before any of that, Grandmaster Sin was in America, teaching CMA, specifically, traditional forms of the Fukien lineage. He called it karate, because in 1964 that was what martial arts was called. There was no "Kung Fu" in1964. Kung fu doesn't even mean martial arts! And while most of you that are alive were teens with crooked teeth and braces, Sin The Karate was holding national tournaments that were attended by some of the most famous martial artists of that era.

With respect to GM Su Kong, he did not create the forms. He may have created a form as part of his legacy (I wouldn't know it), but he did not make them up. GM Ie learned what he had and also collected various materials from other CMA artists living in Bandung in the chinese districts. This is common practice of the Shaolin Order over the centuries. Shaolin is a living, breathing martial art. It evolves. Nothing stays the same "traditional" stuff over the years. It has to evolve with the times. This is both buddhist teaching and the reality of how people teach and communicate. I recently saw a Tai Chi form done by a fellow SD student... I could barely recognize it.... good thing he had a fan, narrowed it down. That's how things go. People do the best they can with what they got. I bet if all of us did the forms for our Masters' Masters, we'd be criticized non-stop for our incorrect form. So don't act so perfect. Shaolin isn't about perfection... it's about how you live your life.

And for the disbelievers:
You can debate CMA or Indonesian all you want, but while most learn stuff that they're told is CMA, we have the notes... in chinese and translated.
I won't make the supposition we have everything, but we have more than enough to last a lifetime. That's good enough for me.
The idea that 900 forms is outlandish... well, I'm glad you think so... leaves more room for me to learn, and my dedication proves I'm worthy.
The idea that 900 is too much: self-limiting. I plan to live over 100 years... I think I can start to get a pretty good picture of Tai Chi 64 by that time. Thanks for your concern.
The idea that gis are japanese: guess what, the monks wore things akin to gis a long time ago. They didn't practice in the robes. Understand that in China... like in the rest of the world (can you believe it), there are clothes to wear in society and those for exercise. Sams (frog-buttons) aren't Kung Fu uniforms... they're regular clothing. Besides, Gis are durable and excellent uniforms. I ask you: why not wear a gi? Only other way to go in my mind is shirtless...
The idea that GM Sin makes it up: you have no idea how busy that man is. If he had time to read a book not related to his work, I'd be surprised. He doesn't watch TV, and he travels all the time. Ask yourself this: if you were to make up a style, would you bother making notes in chinese, a translation, spending hours and hours on it, and go through all this trouble just to make enough money to get by till half a year later? Get. Real.
The idea that the story of our lineage is fake. Ok, I bring a quote to mind from Mark Twain, "Truth is stranger than fiction". Again, ask yourself, if you're coming to America, why would you make up some weird story that people might doubt if instead you can (remember, 1964) claim a lineage to some Shaolin priest in present day China. Would you even think "hey, a hairy man fits this scenario... a perfect fool em idea!". Again, get real. You, nor I would be random enough to make up that story. History really is stranger than fiction.

Did I miss any other typical/repeated slants and questionings of SD?

I want to, in closing, thank our SD representatives on here for being such respectful ambassadors. You'll note they never get on here and bash other styles. In fact, I wonder what that says about our system that we don't log onto forums and start ripping on kempo, or jui jitsu, etc... I have never once seen a thread started by a SD person that was disrespectful to another style or teacher. That is humility/respect we inherit from our Grandmaster, who is way beyond these "forums". I generally, myself, try not to get on these things because I get so aggrevated at the self-limited views of the envious and treacherous people that inhabit forums these days. But when I saw the good name of my GM being sullied by "jiblets and crows" I could not help myself.

When I am a more mature martial artists, I'll learn to let people do as they do, and keep going.

But for now... you'll just have to live with it.

edit: here come the sophists.

[Golden Tiger]

But for now... you'll just have to live with it.

edit: here come the sophists.

Don't hold back, tell them how you really feel.....

By the way, welcome to the quagmire shadowlin....

[Wong Fei Hong]

Is there a dog boy flicks fleas form ?

[Golden Tiger]

Is there a dog boy flicks fleas form ?

1.2........