Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[Blacktiger]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lxtruong

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.


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Thats nuts there is no way your are going to be able to execute that many forms to a high standard - the quality is not going to be there....Unless they are James Lacey forms.

[htowndragon]

hey can someone tell me where sin the got his ba gua from?

i saw a site where his students were doing it. looked like karate.

and can someone tell me the connection between SD and pakua international?

they ahve the same lineage somewhere along the way

[themeecer]

No forms you don't know how to move, no sparring you don't know how to fight." You need both.

Oh man .. that is awesome. I am going to steal that. Thank you for that quote.

You never answered me from above. Weren't you one of our strongest critics at one time? I know you and I had agreed on some other topics, possibly some discussion on chi (I don't remember for sure), but I had thought you and I had clashed strongly a year or so ago on the topic of SD. Is this not the same Fu-Pow?

[CaptinPickAxe]

Peace Be, JP. Long time no see

You know of my distaste for SD. It is completely true FOR THE ONES I HAVE SEEN/fought/trained with. I cannot speak for the whole bunch, I can speak for Texas though. They're a bunch of Tornado Kicking, Dim Makking nancy boys. I have met a few skilled fighters in SD, but they ended up in other arts.

Based on my experience in Texas and here on the net, they seem to be blind (sans a few). I know you can agree with me or at least to a certain extent.

[Golden Tiger]

almost no description of "LE1" though

Try looking up extra point ST 35 (xi yan). The other confusing one was GB 1. It is listed as different names on different charts.

[Judge Pen]

Hey Tornado kicks are fun and they teach you a lot about body control and explosive power. . . . but I would never use one in a real fight unless I heard some booming voice from above cry "FINISH HIM!" while he is standing there staggering in place.

Fu Pow, my typical class with my teacher and another student of the same ranking as me (Saturday morning 8:00-9:15) is warm-up, form, drill a move from that form, and a round of intense sparring for about 90 seconds; another form, another drill and another round of sparring. Its a pretty effiecient use of the time and works on the form, the practical application/proper technique of specific moves from the form, and plety of hard sparring. When I first started learning under my first teacher, we ended every class with an intense sparring session. So, yes, SD had both.

As far as your question of empty hand vs weapon forms the breakdown, by my count, is this:

To 1st Black: 23 total--7 weapons (3 staff, dao, sai, Kwan dao, short stick)
To 2nd Black: 10 additional--4 weapons (all spears)
To 3rd Black: 10 additional--3 weapon (all jians)
To 4th Black: 10 additional--3 weapon (double hook swords, double broad swords and 9 section chain whip)

Throw in some nunchuku twirls in there (no mandatory form) and you get your hands on 11 different weapons, 17 weapon forms)

I have only about 15 additional forms that I've picked up along the way. Most of those I don't practice regularly, but could work them up if I had to.

[Crushing Fist]

hey can someone tell me where sin the got his ba gua from?

i saw a site where his students were doing it. looked like karate.

and can someone tell me the connection between SD and pakua international?

they ahve the same lineage somewhere along the way

what site was this?

the ba gua in SD that I do looks nothing like karate... unless karate involves cirlcle walking and fluid circular hand and body movements. Of course there are many ba gua forms in SD, but the common one is classical pa kua (I still prefer that translation). There are also 8 animal pa kua (my favorite form of all), dragon pa kua, snake pa kua (one of senior master grooms' specialties) and pa kua spear amongst others. None of them look anything like any karate I've ever seen.


JP- Those are interesting differences in what we learn. In atlanta 3rd to 4th weapons are bo staff (pan long bang, entwine the dragon bo) li kwei double axes, and 9 section whip.

I have seen double broadswords and double hookswords forms in seminars here, but they aren't in our advancement curriculum.

I wonder about the empty hand curriculum differences

here its 4 roads of Hua plus 2 Hua 2-man sets, and the Tiger-Crane

[Golden Tiger]

JP- Those are interesting differences in what we learn. In atlanta 3rd to 4th weapons are bo staff (pan long bang, entwine the dragon bo) li kwei double axes, and 9 section whip.

I have seen double broadswords and double hookswords forms in seminars here, but they aren't in our advancement curriculum.

I wonder about the empty hand curriculum differences

here its 4 roads of Hua plus 2 Hua 2-man sets, and the Tiger-Crane

http://www.shaolin-do.com/pages/katas.shtml

[Crushing Fist]

hello golden tiger...

I have seen this list before, but again it just illustrates the differences

I don't think in any area all the forms are required in the black belt ranks, and a lot of the forms are moved to different rank advancement levels...

for instance we get Tang Lang Chien in 1st Black and Tiger Crane in 3rd

just wondering what the different locations specifics are

[GreenCloudCLF]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lxtruong

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.


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Thats nuts there is no way your are going to be able to execute that many forms to a high standard - the quality is not going to be there....Unless they are James Lacey forms.

You know I do not know much about Shaolin-Do and have not been convinced of either it's benefits or it's evilness.

What I have a problem with is people lacing quotes like this, because it is Shaolin-Do. There are plenty of Kung-Fu Sifu who know a ton of forms. But Shaolin-Do gets ranked on because of this. Everyone knows people who are "forms colectors" and want to learn a ton of forms. From what Judge Pen is saying about his exposure to weapons, I think that's cool.

But don't attacl for something that exists in "Regular Kung-Fu land" also.

[lxtruong]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lxtruong

From white to 1st black, you learn what I would say is the equivilent of 27 forms.
From 1st black to 5th black, you learn about 10 forms each belt.


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Thats nuts there is no way your are going to be able to execute that many forms to a high standard - the quality is not going to be there....Unless they are James Lacey forms.

I think that's pretty ridiculous. There is no reason that someone that has been training for TWENTY YEARS couldn't do 60-odd forms to a high standard. I mean, if you ask an amatuer dancer that has been dancing for 20 years if they could perform that number of dances to a high quality I'm pretty sure they'd say yes (assuming they practiced said forms semi-regularly). Or a semi-pro football player 60 routes? Or a musician 60 songs? (note: not all forms are created equal, some are easier than others)

[Fu-Pow]

Oh man .. that is awesome. I am going to steal that. Thank you for that quote.

You never answered me from above. Weren't you one of our strongest critics at one time? I know you and I had agreed on some other topics, possibly some discussion on chi (I don't remember for sure), but I had thought you and I had clashed strongly a year or so ago on the topic of SD. Is this not the same Fu-Pow?

Yeah same ol' Fu-Pow. I'm still critical of SD but I think that the right individual could make it work based on there intelligence, aptitude, attitude and willingness to mix it up in sparring....especially from other more orthodox styles.

I'm now equally critical of schools with a more "believable" lineage but that don't mix it up.

What I'm hearing now about the SD curriculum also makes me a little less critical. The number of forms that you guys learn to become "black belt" isn't that far off from many other kung fu styles.

Now I'm wondering how long it takes to earn that "black belt?"

I think SD would benefit a lot from trimming down and consolidating the curriculum along a certain "theme" or else its always going to be faced with the criticism that it is creating "jacks of all trades and masters of none."

As for the historical/cutural stuff surrounding SD, I still think its a lot of hot air but its really kind of irrelevant to whether or not SD will get you from A to B, from a novice to a kick ass fighter.


EO

[yutyeesam]

my best friend does SD, and has been for 20 years. i don't have a problem with it other than the forms look r3t4rd3d to me. i can't talk, b/c once upon a time, i learned some typical fake fu (you know, tkd master who learned a few kung-fu moves), and we used to banter and trade our fake fu in high school all the time. then, one day i learned some real CLF from a real CLF master, and my world was flipped. When my sihing told me, "Whoever taught you your horse stance taught you some fake kung-fu. You gotta start over!" I realized I was finally learning the real deal.

but, my friend who's been doing SD is a tough m0t43r fv(k3r, so I don't knock it for anything except for the hairy faced dude and the r3t4rd3d looking forms - and all that is superficial anyways. the actual style can produce good results, because as with anything, it is about the individual effort that makes the style work.

-123

[lxtruong]

Now I'm wondering how long it takes to earn that "black belt?"

The way I got the 15-20 years number is going with:

2-3 years to 1st black
2-years to 2nd black
3-years to 3rd black
4-years to 4th black
5-years to 5th black.

I think those are good approximations of the "minimum" amount of time you're required to spend at each rank. You might learn all your stuff earlier, but you still have to wait. The 5 years to 5th is just a guess though, I'm not sure if that's really the case.

[Fu-Pow]

The way I got the 15-20 years number is going with:

2-3 years to 1st black
2-years to 2nd black
3-years to 3rd black
4-years to 4th black
5-years to 5th black.

I think those are good approximations of the "minimum" amount of time you're required to spend at each rank. You might learn all your stuff earlier, but you still have to wait. The 5 years to 5th is just a guess though, I'm not sure if that's really the case.

So you learn 27 forms in 2-3 years? Ok...I think that's too much. I know around 27 forms and it took me 9 years of Choy Lay Fut.

What kind of time commitment does that take to learn the 27 forms in 2-3 years? ie how many hrs/week on average?