Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[Judge Pen]

If you're not a complete idiot, you won't wind up on the ground.

Depends on you and the other person, doesn't it? I'm sure a lot of stand up fighters thought that until Gracie came along. Prepare for all circumstances. Learn enough ground work to be able to defend yourself and get back on your feet asap (if the ground's not your game).

So do you really know everything, or do you just like to pretend you do on the internet?

[Crushing Fist]

It's just talk. I just don't see the point in putting your body through a lot of acrobatics, is all. It just seems useless. I was more talking about these Hua Shan acrobatic forms. I haven't seen the monkey, but if it's acrobatic, then I guess the comments go for that one as well.

then you shouldn't have quoted a statement about the monkey


makes it harder to follow your train of thought.








Being a superior athlete is always an advantage in a fight.


period.






and so you know... monkeys mostly roll

[neilhytholt]

Depends on you and the other person, doesn't it? I'm sure a lot of stand up fighters thought that until Gracie came along. Prepare for all circumstances. Learn enough ground work to be able to defend yourself and get back on your feet asap (if the ground's not your game).

So do you really know everything, or do you just like to pretend you do on the internet?

It's just talk and opinion. Who is claiming to know everything? Some fights may end up on the ground but the vast majority of ones that I or my friends have been in did not end up on the ground. Anyway, if you do end up on the ground, you don't have to jump around and fly around and all that.

I've met more people injured in their training by about a factor of 10 than I've met people injured in actual fights. So I'm an advocate for safer training. Since acrobatic techniques do not help your performance in an actual fight, then it seems like they are useless. That's my opinion. I do not say after every statement that this is my opinion, since it's a given that it's your opinion, unless you're quoting sources. That's just English 101, literally. In an essay you aren't always saying "my opinion is." "I think that." etc.

[Judge Pen]

It's just talk and opinion. Who is claiming to know everything? Some fights may end up on the ground but the vast majority of ones that I or my friends have been in did not end up on the ground. Anyway, if you do end up on the ground, you don't have to jump around and fly around and all that.

I've met more people injured in their training by about a factor of 10 than I've met people injured in actual fights. So I'm an advocate for safer training. Since acrobatic techniques do not help your performance in an actual fight, then it seems like they are useless. That's my opinion. I do not say after every statement that this is my opinion, since it's a given that it's your opinion, unless you're quoting sources. That's just English 101, literally. In an essay you aren't always saying "my opinion is." "I think that." etc.

More people get injured in training then they do in actual fights because more people train then they find themselves putting that training to the test in a live, non-sport, atmosphere. I do see your point about realistic training (If you won't do a technique when you fight, then why train it or do a form that includes it); however, its a difference in philosophy. Do you train spear? Jian? Dao? Why, unless you will be fighting in a 16th century battlefield? Others see it as a creative and fun way to build timing, reflexives, coordination etc. There are certainly more efficient ways to train this, but maybe they aren't as engaging or entertaining.

For me, I'll never through a jump inside crescent kick and spin 180 degrees in the air and throw an outside crescent kick while landing in a low reverse stance in a fight. But working on the explosiveness, body-control and timing have improved other elements of my martial ability, so it works for me. If it doesn't work for you, or if you prefer a different path, then ignore me.

[neilhytholt]

More people get injured in training then they do in actual fights because more people train then they find themselves putting that training to the test in a live, non-sport, atmosphere.

Live, non-sport atmosphere. Yes, that would be a fight. If the purpose is to train for self-defense, then why would you seek out fights?

Anyways, whatever. When you're 50+ and like most of my former sifus that did a lot of long-fist type crap in their youth, and you're complaining about knees, back, getting surgeries, etc., just think about the fact that one guy told you you were being stupid and you didn't listen. LOL

[Judge Pen]

Live, non-sport atmosphere. Yes, that would be a fight. If the purpose is to train for self-defense, then why would you seek out fights?

Anyways, whatever. When you're 50+ and like most of my former sifus that did a lot of long-fist type crap in their youth, and you're complaining about knees, back, getting surgeries, etc., just think about the fact that one guy told you you were being stupid and you didn't listen. LOL

Who said anything about seeking out fights? You said more people get hurt training instead of a fight which is true because mroe people train then fight.

Actually, I have goals. If you think long-fist is acrobatic, you should see the drunk forms that are coming up.

My first sifu in SD died right after I made 1st black. He was a 4th black at the time. I told myself that I would make it to at least 4th black for that reason. Other than that I could care less about rank. My goal is to stop rank-advancement at 4th and focus on more internal arts for the very reason that my body isn't getting any younger. Until then, I have Hua.

[ninthdrunk]

I know we're all talking about hua, but since I brought up ground monkey, and we're now talking about getting older:


When grandmaster sin taught ground monkey in Austin, there were three groups. Each group did each section (there are four) about six times before "open practice" where grandmaster sin was sitting out. Grandmaster sin is 63 and he went through each section every time another group was up...the entire seminar lasted about three hours. I don't know how the heck he did it. It was amazing. Now, can he do the forms he used to do the way he used to do them? Probably not. BUT, between seeing his conditioning during ground monkey, not to mention his speed during golden leopard, I think there is a very good reason to train in all forms, even those that have "un-applicable" moves.

I would rather risk some injury (nothing serious, obviously) from training hard now, even though I know I won't be able to do the same things in old age, if it will help my chances of being able to do more than the typical "old guy."

[JoeDotJ]

I do see everyone’s points and I’d like to give my thoughts in a semi-rambling form. I’m a lowly student in Shaolin-Do (hello, my seniors), so if you think I’m biased and a little uniformed you’d be justified.

I think that by reading this thread (most of it) I have gained more insight as to why I joined and why I still study under the Shaolin-Do system. I am from a martial arts family and its in the blood; my meaning is that I have no urge to fight, show off, or compete, but I have an unexplainable urge to do martial arts. However learning how to fight has been a good result that has helped me out of a few situations where my brain couldn’t. I am also in my mid-twenty’s and have been practicing jujitsu since I was seven until joining this camp. (If you’re wondering, this is my intro of myself since this is my first post. Or maybe I’m secretly egotistical….)

The main reasons why I joined my Shaolin-Do school and association is that the teaching philosophy was very conductive to the way I learn and I am able to form my own fighting style by picking, testing, and using moves from various forms and styles. Basics do come first, but if you join SD you’ll feel that you have a lot more freedom to develop from that base. I am aware that this isnt the fastest way to learn or gather skill to beat people up. Good thing I don’t usually spend my Saturdays kicking a$$, assuming I could.

People don’t always learn martial arts to fight. A lot of people like to compete, a lot of people like the “dance” feel to it, some people just go to practice to “trick” and flip around like monkeys. Some people just like forms. I personally like forms because they show me different things that I can use them FOR fighting and sparing. I have that epiphany someone mentioned and I have it regularly. That and because they’re fun. Different strokes for different folks.


Are the forms authentic? Are the stories really? Isnt it just freaking Karate?

Sure, sure, and I’m not touching the various arguments in that one. Why cant they be? I admit that I’m young and I am in no way an expert in anything at this point, but I also have been around a little while and I have seen many things. I can’t say that the way we do forms isnt exactly or even somewhat the same as what others do. What I can say is that they do feature similar moves and are used in similar ways. At least they’re not flowery, the applications are there, they are explained, I come up with some myself, and I use them.

You can also expect forms and styles to change over time especially when material is passed from student to student. Material and the way things are done are expected to change as the teacher/sifu/gm sees fit. Its natural and logical. I cant imagine being content with the way I do things for the extent of my life.

I certainly don’t see the logic of Chinese moving into other Chinese communities, such as in Indonesia, and having to rename their “Chinese Art” art as “Indonesian.” Then again, whats in a name. A lot of Chinese don’t call themselves “Chinese,” but tong-yhan. Regardless, its still a martial art.

Stories are just stories, people misinterpret, facts become fiction. You tell a story at a bar- you embellish it a little and when its passed on, all hell breaks loose and its blown out of proportion. Chinese do the same thing. Why do you think we have such colorful stories? Why are there so many people flying around on my tv screen at 8pm? (yes, yes, its by way of their chi) Truth can be stranger than fiction, I agree. I don’t take many of the old stories too seriously. One person defeating a whole army? I cant say believe it, but I cant totally discount it. There are some pretty cool and some pretty nasty rumors about myself as well.

Material

It might be my perspective, but I do see some trends. In brown: birds and sticks. 1st black (so far ;-): Tigers and spears. I’m told not many teach the Shangtung Tiger. Not everyone learns at the same speed. 23 forms or so is not hard to learn at all. Mastering them is something else, and possibly another rant… I probably cant do all my material perfectly, but I can do some very well and practice the ones I want more frequently. Remember, I’m young.

I have taken many of the “marketed” festivals. Most of the people there are the actual students and would be there no matter what. You don’t even have to take most of them and some of them you cant. Its called an option. I opt to learn it and practice it thereafter. I can also opt to forget it.

Yeah, there are a lot of forms. It was marketed to me by my sifu as a “lifetime of learning.” I have no problem with that.

You have the chance to learn it. No one has ever made the claim that I will fully master or be proficient in everything. As much as I would like to be the poster child, I don’t think I could. Grandmaster once said that its not practical to teach everything as Americans don’t have that much time, but he picks the ones that you would learn most from. And this is what my instructors, sinsaangs, sifu, and Grandmaster have beat into my brain. Learn it, pick the good stuff and use it. Pick the bad stuff and try to use it, but if not – then not. I thank them for it because it has helped me become more versatile.

Students

Judgments and misconceptions usually come from students like myself and yourselves. We are all still students. I cant imagine any real (as in not someone pretending to be) Grandmasters talking the trash that is on this and many other boards.


A rose is a rose and no amount of proof can prove even the existence of God, the most influential entity of all time. The truly sad thing is not what I wrote, haha; it is the fact that I spent time typing instead of practicing. And that is my piece.

Feel free to PM me, with thoughts or to debate. Don’t pm me with flames, flame me on this thread if you like.

[Crushing Fist]

Hello Joe,

nice to meet you. great post, looking forward to more.

where are you from? kentucky?





on a side note... anyone have pa kua broadsword? its being taught here at a seminar soon.

[Judge Pen]

Grandmaster sin is 63 and he went through each section every time another group was up...the entire seminar lasted about three hours. I don't know how the heck he did it. It was amazing.

Yeah, like I said earlier, he did all the form other than the kip-up and the shoot-through. Impressive in that he was still doing things better than I ever could.

Joe. Nice post. Welcome to the forum. There's more to do than argue SD here, and I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[JoeDotJ]

Thanks. True, but some threads and topics catch my eye better than others. I'm actually out in sunny california . Unfortuately I can't make it out there for the giant sword bagua set. I'm sad as it is a pretty big sword...er, knife.

[Golden Tiger]

Thanks. True, but some threads and topics catch my eye better than others. I'm actually out in sunny california . Unfortuately I can't make it out there for the giant sword bagua set. I'm sad as it is a pretty big sword...er, knife.

Welcome to the quagmire Joe. If you want the Pa Kua sword (or Hsing I one for that matter), come out to Ky for a week or so, I would be happy to teach it to you. Or better yet, fly me out to sunny Cali .

Just a few observations:

Neil is a satire....treat him as such.

Sean, all knowing and all seeing one of the MA world, do you know or have you looked into where the China Hand guys got that (and others) Hua form from? Yes,(and I think it was discussed before), it is the same as we learned and seeing that M. Sin made all of them up, they must have borrowed it. Or even better, it made its why over thru another line...wouldn't that be sweet As for the vid of that guy winning 1st place with what he did, and no offense to him at all, I feel alot better about my old butt when I review them.

9th, sorry I didn't get back to your pm. Yes I will be rolling around at the Monkey (and will probably hurt myself doing so; should have listen to Neil ). See you there also BM2, missed you at the GL seminar but hope your shoulder is better. There have been quiet a few with similar injuries that have made full recoveries.

Howdy JP, hope the prison....er.....marriage is treating you well.

Ok, off to ice down my knees for a little while.

[sean_stonehart]

Sean, all knowing and all seeing one of the MA world, do you know or have you looked into where the China Hand guys got that (and others) Hua form from?

All knowing? BWAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAA.... thanks but wrong dude. I'm a little fish in a big pond.

As to where they got it from... no idea. I'm guessing their original teacher Peter Kwok learned it & passed it on, but I never delved into it since it would've been "heresay" & all to think otherwise at the time.

But an easy contact person is Marilyn Cooper. There's video of her doing San Lu on her website. She wrote an article for the KFM here...

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezin...hp?article=621

Yes,(and I think it was discussed before), it is the same as we learned and seeing that M. Sin made all of them up, they must have borrowed it. Or even better, it made its why over thru another line...wouldn't that be sweet

I'm pretty sure it came from another line but appears to be the same Hua as Cai Longyun (featured in KFO a few issues back) teaches. I don't believe the Hua's got near the crap some of the other stuff did. I think the origin running about is what got the guff, not the matieral.

Here's a piece of the article... http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=625

As for the vid of that guy winning 1st place with what he did, and no offense to him at all, I feel alot better about my old butt when I review them.

No comment on that one...

[Judge Pen]

Nah, no one believes that GM The made up our hua; they believe he learned it from a book or vid or something.

And the marriage is well. I've been institutionalized.

[MasterKiller]

When you're 50+ and like most of my former sifus that did a lot of long-fist type crap in their youth, and you're complaining about knees, back, getting surgeries, etc., just think about the fact that one guy told you you were being stupid and you didn't listen. LOL