Shaolin-do teaching the SUPER SECRET invincible internal style

[Golden Tiger]

This is a paradigm issue... one that has no victory conditions...

You are wise beyond your years. We like it, the rest don't. This particular paradigm will never change.

Well, hey, at least the certificates are somewhat cool, with the dragons and all. Except the part that says: Sin The's KARATE Club

They are pretty cool. Have you seen the really big ones? Listing all the material and such? The ones I have are REALLY cool.

IN SD's defense, I hear Sin The's brother is actually a bad a$$

He used to be, thats for sure. Some of us ran into him not to long ago and he didn't look that well. Didn't he injure his back or something? But back when he was at the SC, yep, he was a tough mo fo.

double-dagger kata that is being taught in SD is incorrect all the way around, and that Sin made it up

If he made it up, how could he be teaching it wrong? Plus, the two dbl dagger forms that are taught now are not the ones M. Hiang teaches. The throwing dagger one you are refering to isn't taught on our side anymore.

Sin never learned ANY of the bird material, he got it from his brother and apparently screwed it up once they broke apart.

M. Hiang got the rest of the Tai Peng system when he went back to Indo. in the mid 80's along with the drunk monkey stuff. He only taught the first one out befor the split and was set to teach the other stuff but didn't for some mysterious reason. (my name was on the sign up sheet). We only do the first one anyway (most of us that is ) and it is exactly like M. Hiang taught it. Not sure what is screwed up about it.

You know I don’t care what you think and have little respect for your knowledge of anything

Apparently you do...

Personally, I have nothing against SD.

And yet you continue to make ad hominem attacks against something you have absolutely no knowledge of.

In regards to Sin The:

See above....

My complaint is about how the seminars are marketed (the sensationalist terminology) and how one must conveniently attend 2 previous seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist.

To start with, the seminar is not being "marketed". That is the way that all things used to be taught by M. Sin. You would spend 6 months and sometimes longer conditioning yourself, gaining flexibility, etc. to be able to physically do the form. Since he only teaches in seminar form now, I would assume that the things taught in the first two are needed to be proficient on the latter two.

And for the demographic that the "marketing" is being geared toward, most would be there anyway. He has been doing these seminars for over ten years and in the Ky one alone, there is always 150 plus students that show up. If he had only told of the first two, I imagine the same number would be there.

If I wanted my school to learn it I would send one student to all 4 seminars and then just learn the Meteor Fist when my student got to it.

I bet you pirate mp3's too...

In my opinion there is no reasonable reason to expect someone to attend 2 seminars before they may learn the Meteor Fist and the fact it may or may not be a traditional method of teaching and learning is merely rationalization.

Your a nurse correct? Was there a resonable reason for each and everyone of the classes you had to take to become a nurse? Couldn't most of the things that you do daily be taught to someone much quicker rather than 4 years of school plus all those continuing education classes? I assume you had to take chemisty...when was the lasttime you did an actual titration to determine the levels of blood gas or the pH of urine. You took biology also I would think. When was the last time it was necessary to disect a fetal pig in your normal routine? So see, I think 99% of what you went to school for was a waste of time. Dump the overpaid nurses and grab a few people off the street, teach them how to read a digital readout and there you go.


By the way, this passes the downtime during the day so I will probably be around for a while. Plus i kinda think a few here are begining to like me...

[Jarhead101]

[QUOTE=Golden Tiger]

If he made it up, how could he be teaching it wrong? Plus, the two dbl dagger forms that are taught now are not the ones M. Hiang teaches. The throwing dagger one you are refering to isn't taught on our side anymore.

What I'm referring to is "Swallow Swoops Down from Heaven", it is still in the curriculum (I just learned it before I left) and it's still in Hiang's curriculum.

What I mean is his brother taught it out when they were together, and when they broke apart the form changed. So Sin The either changed it or it's being taught incorrectly, either way. This came from a VERY high ranking source in Hiang's group.

I suppose it doesn't really matter, it was one of the few forms I enjoyed in SD.

[SimonM]

I bet you pirate mp3's too...

I pirate MP3 files all the time. I have hundreds of songs on MP3 on my computer. Here in China, where the internet is my only source of western music that isn't boy bands this is actually a survival mechanism.

[Judge Pen]

As any Master ages the administration of the style becomes the purview of his leading students and this may be where excessive marketing, political maneuverings and foolishness start to become evident to those on the outside looking in!

I think that is something common that you see in SD and other styles. "My dad can beat up your dad" type mentality bleeds through into the marketing of a style. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but as GT and I have pointed out, most people will attend these seminars no matter what was being offered. In fact making the last two seminar's contingent upon attending all the previous seminars will probably hinder attendance (and the bottom line that seems to offend most here) more than help it.

It is not unusual for a school to take care of its Master. This does have a long tradition in the MA of Asia. So I see no problem with his students buying him a car. The situation is, in these modern times (and I am sure in the “old” days as well), there are so many con men around people tend towards healthy skepticism rather than blind following!

I doubt that con-men in martial arts is a modern phenomenon.

[Golden Tiger]

What I mean is his brother taught it out when they were together, and when they broke apart the form changed. So Sin The either changed it or it's being taught incorrectly, either way. This came from a VERY high ranking source in Hiang's group.

I suppose it doesn't really matter, it was one of the few forms I enjoyed in SD.

Oop's, misunderstood the original post I guess. Hmmm...wonder how a VERY high ranking source would know how its taught on our side.... Well, at least that tell me they still care about us.

[Judge Pen]

On Sin and Hiang:

My teacher says that Hiang was a bad mo fo, but he also says that Hiang told his class that he wouldn't take the 20 top fighters in our system, and himself, and take on Master Sin.

I would take with a grain of salt anything that is said about the other side now given the bad history and rivalry betweene the two camps. It's a shame too since Hiang is the best link to the source of our material and system outside of GMS.

[godzillakungfu]

Oop's, misunderstood the original post I guess. Hmmm...wonder how a VERY high ranking source would know how its taught on our side.... Well, at least that tell me they still care about us.

I can answer this it was changed on the West side. Of course people will say this is hearsay. There are marked difference between East/West Shaolin-Do. The explanations (West only) are fairly inventive.

[Judge Pen]

Other things aside, differences between schools will always be present. Teachers change the material, consciously or unconscioulsy, to suit their preference and ability. So do the students as much as their teacher will let them get away with it.

[godzillakungfu]

Save for that there is NOTHING in Shaolin Do that looks like kempo.

Show me where SD does Dance of Death, or Five Swords of China, or even uses Kempo terminology like "doing it in the air" or "street sparring".

SD is clearly CMA, look at the dragon form, or the 8 drunken immortals, or the tiger crane. look at their weapons.

I have no problem if you want to say that SD is bad CMA, or a lousy lineage, or has suspicious history. Just don't tell me that it aint CMA.

I took Ken(m)po there are many similarities in some of the forms. There are also things that are completely different. Personally I think it is an amalgam some good some bad. The politics and the alleged marketing (I agree with GT on this point) are what make it so horrible. I've seen way worse systems and I've seen better systems (IMO).

The 900+/most comprehensive form crap needs to go. Yet, if you read the flyer or the website, all the words are directed at students not the general public. To me this wasn't marketed the way Scott Brown is using the word.

[themeecer]

What I'm referring to is "Swallow Swoops Down from Heaven", it is still in the curriculum (I just learned it before I left) and it's still in Hiang's curriculum.

What I mean is his brother taught it out when they were together, and when they broke apart the form changed. So Sin The either changed it or it's being taught incorrectly, either way. This came from a VERY high ranking source in Hiang's group.

I have had the opportunity to see the form you are talking about from Master Hiang's students. It is exactly the way I was taught and continue to teach.

And yes Master Hiang was a bad 'mo fo.' So is/was GMS. Only difference was that GMS had the ability to mask and control his anger better. And I am not putting down Master Hiang, because even though the two camps are no longer together, I still respect him as a carrier of our art and no matter what, is still part of my lineage. Heck, my yellow belt certificate has his signature on it.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Golden Tiger,

Always a pleasure to teach you a little bit more about proper reasoning.

Me: You know I don’t care what you think and have little respect for your knowledge of anything.

You:

Apparently you do..

Me:

Don’t confuse responding with caring. Your apparent pathological and incessant need to continually ridicule me requires response. If one allows a bully free play he feels comfortable continuing to bully. If one makes it uncomfortable for him to bully “some” bullies eventually get the hint and stop their abusive behavior. Others don’t have the mental capacity to catch on. While some with lesser patience will eventually just clean the bullys' clock, those with maturity will merely ignore them. When I decide my responses are no longer productive I will ignore your childishness!
__________________________________________________ ______
Me:

Personally, I have nothing against SD.

You:

And yet you continue to make ad hominem attacks against something you have absolutely no knowledge of.

Me:

I don’t think you understand what an ad hominem attack is. It is what you repeatedly do to me. That is attack me personally using ridicule instead of responding to the argument in question. If you were properly trained in reasoning it would be clear to you that I supply reasoned explanations for most or all of my opinions. Since you have inadequate ability to supply reasoned responses you resort to insults.

Name my ad hominem attack(s) please (If you can!) and I will be happy to supply a reasoned response as to my why I used it! I commonly save my ad hominem attacks for fools like you!
__________________________________________________ ___________
You:

To start with, the seminar is not being "marketed". That is the way that all things used to be taught by M. Sin. You would spend 6 months and sometimes longer conditioning yourself, gaining flexibility, etc. to be able to physically do the form. Since he only teaches in seminar form now, I would assume that the things taught in the first two are needed to be proficient on the latter two.

Me:

If you are not in shape to begin with you aren’t training very seriously and it seems would not deserve to learn such a rare form! If the form is available to all who attend white belts to black belts then it hardly seems like a form that would require much foundation. Since beginners hardly have any foundation of understanding at all! It isn’t like one must learn to perform a back somersault prior to being able to perform the form. It is an internal form, and although considered aggressive it could hardly be more difficult than a hard form! While some have provided reasons for requiring attendance at two previous seminars, none of them are presently reasonable.
__________________________________________________ ________
You:

And for the demographic that the "marketing" is being geared toward, most would be there anyway. He has been doing these seminars for over ten years and in the Ky one alone, there is always 150 plus students that show up. If he had only told of the first two, I imagine the same number would be there.

Me:

If you had carefully read any of my previous posts (I understand they may be too lengthy for your attention span) you would have read:

“If a student is truly a participant of the Shaolin-Do they would not need such commercial manipulations to attract them to a seminar. All it would take is a simple announcement that the master is holding a rare seminar to teach the Meteor Fist!! Sensationalism is designed to attract more participants for the purpose of making money. A respectable Master does not need to resort to such antics. His quiet actions speak for him!”

You have just confirmed my statement that it is not necessary. Thank you for confirming my point!

Later I qualified it with:

“As any Master ages the administration of the style becomes the purview of his leading students and this may be where excessive marketing, political maneuverings and foolishness start to become evident to those on the outside looking in!”

This was intended to explain that I understand that Sin is most likely not directly responsible for the sensationalism found in the original e-mail!
__________________________________________________ __________
You:

I bet you pirate mp3's too...

Me:

Resorting to ad hominem attacks through ridicule once again I see. A bit hypocritical don’t you think?
__________________________________________________ __________
You:

Your a nurse correct? Was there a resonable reason for each and everyone of the classes you had to take to become a nurse? Couldn't most of the things that you do daily be taught to someone much quicker rather than 4 years of school plus all those continuing education classes? I assume you had to take chemisty...when was the lasttime you did an actual titration to determine the levels of blood gas or the pH of urine. You took biology also I would think. When was the last time it was necessary to disect a fetal pig in your normal routine? So see, I think 99% of what you went to school for was a waste of time.

Me:

Nursing is not MA. They cannot be compared even closely. This form is being taught to all comers. White belts to Black belts. Where are all these foundational classes the White belts should have attended prior to learning the form? If a white belt can learn it, a Black certainly doesn’t require two foundational seminars. If he does he is clearly not very well trained.

It would be more accurate to compare this circumstance to dance. This requirement is like insisting a dancer perform in the Nutcracker before he is allowed to perform in Swan Lake! If you are a professional dancer you should have the ability to perform either!
__________________________________________________ _______________
You:

Dump the overpaid nurses and grab a few people off the street, teach them how to read a digital readout and there you go.

Me:

You mean like army corp men. I agree. No one better trained that I have ever seen!

P.S. Give me a chance to respond to some of these other ones before you try to rip me a new one again!! You are not very good at it, but at least you tried to formulate proper arguments this time. I give you one star! * Now all you need to do is drop the ridicule and I might grow to respect you a bit regardless of whether I agree with you!

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Judge Pen

I doubt that con-men in martial arts is a modern phenomenon.

I dont think you read my comments well enough I did qualify it in my original statement! I bolded the relevant portion for you:

Me:

It is not unusual for a school to take care of its Master. This does have a long tradition in the MA of Asia. So I see no problem with his students buying him a car. The situation is, in these modern times (and I am sure in the “old” days as well), there are so many con men around people tend towards healthy skepticism rather than blind following!

Ok Golden Tiger!! Go For it!!

[Golden Tiger]

Me a bully??? lol that the best one yet.

[chud]

I must say this thread is quite interesting. I had no idea that Master Sin had a brother named Hiang, and that Hiang specialized in the Bird (Tai Peng) style. I googled and found his site: http://www.centralshaolin.com/

[chud]

I have been googling on Master Hiang (Sin's brother) and I must say he appears to be the real deal. Apparently brother Sin Kwang The studied under their grandfather, while Hiang Kwang The studied under four masters with the guidance of the grandfather. This would explain why Hiang seems to teach some material that Sin does not. Also, Hiang is very open about the fact that his style took a lot from Indonesian/Japanese influences, he doesn't try to hide that at all.