OT: the evils of socialism vs. the evils of capitalism

[MonkeySlap Too]

Mat, not locked for defending socialism - for the concise and well argued case against it.

For months now I've seen long threads bashing America, bashing Bush - most of them passed upon fallacies of Chomskyian magnitude - and they are tolerated. But when China was brought in as an example of the horrors of socialism (and I didn't even get to the forced late term abortions performed by injecting poison into the womb) - presto we were locked out. Now there is a lot of good things going on in China as it seeks to modernize without collapsing into chaos - but the results of creating a 'workers paradise' are pretty clear - and it has only been the introduction of market influences that have started to make things significantly better.

It just seemed funny to me, seeing as we are all CMA nuts. Are we selling our souls to a government that refers to the U.S. in internal documents as 'enemy number one'?

[David Jamieson]

Wow, you have access to internal PRC documentation in regards to their position on their relationship with the USA? You must be like james bond or something! lol

Yep, Mao killed millions in the war to grasp control of China.

Seems to be a trend regardless of the model that the leader in order to get or maintain power will kill people in some way shape or form. Be it now or be it a hundred years ago. No ruling power is without it's mortal sins or it's pecadillos.

As for Bush, it is quite possible he is the least educated, least wordly, most myopic president the states have ever blessed themselves with.

Now try To speak out against that government and see how fast you wind up in the protestors fenced area. If you dissent, you will have no outlet for that dissent, you will be ostracized, ridiculed and marginalized. How is this different anywhere?

Freedom my ass mateys, you are losing civil liberties daily. I guess you won't notice until it directly affects you personally, but that's another issue.

[MasterKiller]

Maybe Gene should 'leak' the name of the undercover admin who locked the thread in order to scare the admins into leaving political threads alone...

[Radhnoti]

Something from the other thread that irritated me:

Yum Cha - "I think the general contention is that Bush is becoming more facist, as the countervalence from the socialist philosophy becomes weaker. And that he uses misinformation to generate personal fear and xenophobia to further his ends....That is the Adolf Hitler patented formula for the propogation of power. That and the promise of world domination."

Anyone who looks at this administration should see that Bush has yet to veto a spending bill sent to him. Republican house, republican senate and republican president has led to even MORE social programs and government give-aways then when Clinton was in office. I think it may be fair to say Bush is sliding toward facism...as long as you understand what Christopher is saying about it (in the end) being the same as socialism.


Yum Cha -"...Just remember, it was the "Whiny Liberals" that made America great. Crack open a history book and you'll find your founding fathers were the great liberals of their Century, building a new nation across to the banks of the Mississippi with a freedom and egalitarianism unheard of."

Liberals of THEN are different from liberals of NOW. They intentionally set up a MINIMALIST federal government, with limited power to effect the everyday lives of the people. Compare that to todays nanny state pushing liberals and you'll have to agree there's a difference.


Yum Cha -"And the abolition of slavery was hardly a conservative issue..."

Hardly a conservative issue? Wasn't the real base of that movement northern CHURCHES? I'm not even vaguely religious and even I recognize this to be something you've got to credit "the church" with.

Ok, off my chest now. Thanks.

I'm disappointed in the results of this Presidential administration...actually with Republicans in general. Proponents of smaller government were better off without one party in near complete power. I didn't agree with a single thing about Kerry, but he wouldn't have ok'ed as much spending sent to him by the Republican house and congress...
I'm voting Libertarian next time, and if my vote is "wasted" and is "in effect a vote for a Democrat"...well, fine. As long as they don't take complete control, I've come to believe it's good for them to be "the adversary" and have enough power to gum things up for Republican spending schemes.

[Nick Forrer]

MS2 wrote on the locked thread:

'The Chinese destroyed Tibet, crushed the culture, and sought to shatter their national identity. Show me one modern example of the US doing this. If the US behaved like the PRC, it really would be a different world. '

enjoy the read

[Mortal1]

captainpickax

Did I personally attack you?

Keep up the name throwing. The best part is you would NEVER say that to my face. Liberal a$$hole.

They locked a thread because it has bashing. But when Bush is bashed its ok.

[Juan Alvarez]

MS2 wrote on the locked thread:

'The Chinese destroyed Tibet, crushed the culture, and sought to shatter their national identity. Show me one modern example of the US doing this. If the US behaved like the PRC, it really would be a different world. '

enjoy the read

The thing is Nick, since the US involment in those was covert operations, everybody in the US will look the other way as if it never happened... At the end, for them, it will all be Liberal or Socialist fantasy...

Juan

[Ou Ji]

Proponents of smaller government were better off without one party in near complete power.

Whatever happened to the guy coming in second being the Vice President?

I'll have to research this but I seem to recall that it was initially that way.

[@PLUGO]

after looking into it a bit I found out that this is a KUNGFU FORUM... believe it or not but it seems that discussion on kungfu take precedence over discussions of non kungfu topics.
Those topics seem to be generally tolerated so long as they remain relatively civil and on topic... and aren't construed as spam. That said, moderators, administrators etc. have discretion to merge, lock or remove treads (and or posts) as deemed needed.

From all indications a thread titled "TERROR ALERTS WERE FAKED" spent several pages discussing matters not at all related to that topic. Some of that discussion was not quite civil and some of it even drifted into the realm of creative writing. Is it a wonder it might be locked?

everyone seems to love getting worked up over discussions of politics, however this is not quite the place for it. It's tolerated, in so much as it's civil, on topic and does not absorb too much server space. This is also the case for discussions of someones love life, career and legal status.

No body seems to complain when a 4 page tread discussing weather a person should have an extramarital affair is locked. All of these other conspiracy theories are in a word ridiculous. Now go here and prove your capitalist loyalties... or this venue for free speech will also be loc . . . er I mean taxed!!!

[Christopher M]

Anyone who looks at this administration should see that Bush has yet to veto a spending bill sent to him. Republican house, republican senate and republican president has led to even MORE social programs and government give-aways then when Clinton was in office.

And more protectionism and more deficit spending...

... but I'm pretty sure they're still 'right-wing extremists' (I read it in Mother Jones).

[Ben Gash]

I complain about the socialist government in this country all the time
As for American support for attrocities, Contras, Iraq for 20 years, sending terror suspects to Egypt and Uzbekistan for "interrogation"......

[Ben Gash]

Oh, and did you know America invented concentration camps?

[Royal Dragon]

I'm voting Libertarian next time, and if my vote is "wasted" and is "in effect a vote for a Democrat"...well, fine. As long as they don't take complete control, I've come to believe it's good for them to be "the adversary" and have enough power to gum things up for Republican spending schemes

Reply]
I allways vote Libertarian. I Vote Republican for any spot the Libertarian's don't have a canidate. If everyone did that, instead of worrying about the "Wasted vote" senario then the system would work more like it is supposed to.

I think the whole "Wasted Vote" thing is just a mind game to prevent smaller parties from forming and growing enough to be a legit challenge to the two big ones.

The big two have duped the masses with the whole "Wasted Vote" concept, and you now have too many people voting against thier belifes out of fear.

[MonkeySlap Too]

My only break from the Libertarians was the last election - because if John Kerry had been elected, HE would have been the least educated, quickest to surrender, most foolish president. So you can't win them all... Sometimes the lesser of two evils is required as the worst one is SO bad, it's unimaginable. Kerry makes Bush look like the smartest guy on Earth. (Heck, his scores at Yale were LOWER than Bush's.) And his wife... Just more rich folks trying to impose rules on us, but not for themselves. Typical democrats.

It is common knowledge in intelligence circles that America is labeled 'public enemy no.1". Since 9/11 I've done quite a few CQC sessions for different organizations - usually gratis as I'm a patriot.

DS - I'm just looking for clarification. This is more of a bar than a kung fu forum at times, and it is fun to engage the foolish.

[Christopher M]

MST -- if I had to self-identify as anything, it would be 'classical liberal' too. Do you know the Austrian economic writers? (Hayek, Von Mises) They're the best modern example of classical liberalism, IMHO; much better than Chicago school/Monetarism.

American Libertarianism seems to be mostly reactionary nuts, unfortunately. Maybe I've had unrepresentative experiences with them though.

Real political change is going to require fundamental changes to the democratic system, rather than the election of any particular person or party. For example, emphasizing more proportional representation rather than first-past-the-post style voting would get rid alot of that "wasted vote" mentality and produce a >2 party system.