Help with qi

[Ou Ji]

Thanks for all the info everyone. I don't mean to sound like a jerk but how difficult is it to stand motionless holding your arms out?

I really don't see the necessity of having a qualified instructor overseeing that type of training.

I just don't subscribe to the notion that all is hopeless without personal instruction from a qualified teacher. Results vary depending on the source with personal instruction at the top and scribbled notes at the bottom.

Anyhow I had been planning on trying 20 - 30 minutes of Zhan Zhuang for quite awhile now. Got some good info from Master Wang Rengang in NY.

Sorry FT, I just tried it and all I feel is warmer when hands are close and cooler when far apart. Nothing unusual there.

[Ray Pina]

A quick points and opinions:

Good that you're not forcing a "feel" and can be honest with yourself. It took me some time too. Where I felt it first, and became aware of it, was in taiji's first move, the up and down.

When in the up position, imagine that you are pushing a big log into the water, and it raises you up. Keep your palms opn and your fingers straight. Hold your head up, pull everything up and try to quiet the mind. Very hard to explain all of this, you need a teacher to show you.

But think about this: you only think about your head or stomach when they hurt ... otherwise, you feel nothing special about those parts. Guys who are feeling things early, that's not necessarily their chi. It's their channels opening up. Perhaps everything is flowing well and all is good.

Some pustures were very unformfortable for me at first, I felt too much, and it wasn't chi. Now I can hold them a lot easier, much more relaxed about it.

Good luck.

[Ou Ji]

Thanks for your input. For the record I am not trying to learn TC blindly on my own. I've had decent instructors in the past.

I'm sure I wasn't putting enough into it because I was more occupied with external training. I'm just wondereing if there are better exercises for me since the stuff I've been doing doesn't seem to be giving me the results that others are claiming.

Not that I think they're all lying but I am VERY skeptical. Hence my decision to try making a bigger effort before hollering QI NUTS.

[cam]

How hard is it to stand motionless with your arms held out in front of you?
Very hard! That is if you are doing it properly, hence the need for qualified instruction. It took me a year just to come close to the proper alignment and when I finally began to stand properly I could barely hold the stance for 10 minutes.
That's how long it took me to just learn to relax and sink into the posture, the wuji posture that is, with my arms comfortably hanging by my sides.
Now 2 years later, I practise the tree-hugger for about 30 min every day(almost), yet I've still not achieved 30 min of song in my posture, there is always some tension creeping in.
Maybe in a few more years I'll have it, to borrow a phrase "just do it"

[Anjentao]

Ou ji,

You do not sound like a jerk. You're giving your honest opinion. As I gave mine.

I couldn't agree more with cam. It's very hard to practice these postures correctly. I practice every day trying to improve. It is truly a challenge. There are several components of practice and they are all important.

I chose to reply to this thread because it was similar to my experience. I started studying shao-lin (external) and caught a glimpse of Tai Chi, Ba Gua and Hsing Yi, but not in depth. I decided to search for a teacher to EXPERIENCE for myself what this "internal" was really about. I was lucky enough to find one. It is not at all what I thought it was. It is a great deal more.

I think ultimately you will follow what works for you. Practicing consistently is good and practicing correctly wouldn't hurt either.

If you find a teacher, I would be interested in your opinion after studying with him/her for a while.

Good luck and best regards.
Anj

Practice, Patience, Persistence

[fiercest tiger]

Depends on what you want dude?

If you want to feel chi or you want to heal with the hands, you want spiritual enlightenment, or a type of ging you will do different type of chi kung for different things.

You maybe not listening and feeling enough to feel the energy pulling and pushing when playing the ball or doing to fast. Anyway you will find it one day if you keep at it. Too many people giving you info like log in water etc can be confusing IMHO.

All the best mate
FT

[cam]

One question Ou Ji, how low were you in your stance while you were practising any standing posture?
It may be that you were more concerned with developing your legs then with relaxing your upper body. Done correctly your legs should feel the burn even in a high stance. I would say that until you have some command at relaxing your lower back you shouldn't even concern yourself with low stances.

[Lajet]

Any suggestions for a qualified person in and around Rochester, New York?

[TonyM.]

Ou Ji. Chi gong is energy training. You are training chi, not li. A chi gong exercise that has the arms extended would nesessitate that you be able to raise the arms with chi circulation and not muscular strength. This involves finding, gathering. building and refining chi and having it overflow your five vessels and run freely through your twelve meridians. When you can do the grand circulation the arms will rise on their own accord. Yi(mind or intent) leads chi(energy) leads li (flesh or muscle).

[Scott R. Brown]

Ou Ji. Chi gong is energy training. You are training chi, not li. A chi gong exercise that has the arms extended would nesessitate that you be able to raise the arms with chi circulation and not muscular strength. This involves finding, gathering. building and refining chi and having it overflow your five vessels and run freely through your twelve meridians. When you can do the grand circulation the arms will rise on their own accord. Yi(mind or intent) leads chi(energy) leads li (flesh or muscle).

Actually this is realtively easy to do without all that activity. I have done it many times. This action does not require any knowledge of chi or its circulation, nor does it require any intent to culitvate, store or move chi. All it requires is mental focus.

[TaiChiBob]

Greetings..

Hi Scott... i agree with both you and Tony.. when i started Jham Zhong it was dependent on focus and muscle control (exhausting and painful).. these many years later i have come to understand that by inflating Peng into the arms and shoulders and "sinking into the ground" it is nearly effortless.. I have not heard of anyone by-passing the physical torture of the external training to reach the liberation of internal gifts.. so, i assume they are the Yang/Yin aspects of this discipline..

One of my mentor's children spent an extended stay in China with a well-respected Chen coach and QiGong adept.. after a month, the offspring was nearly defeated by the required 4 hours a day of Zham Zhong.. The coach said it would be reduced to 30 minutes twice a day as soon as they "got it".. the offspring's shoulders had literally doubled in size, but.. within a week of the discouraged call home, the offspring "had it".. the new found wisdom was shared upon return, "there is a limitless universal energy flowing through each of us, let it do the work".. even with those words of wisdom, it took me some time to understand it is as easy as doing it, and as difficult as trying to do it.. Occasionally, i get lucky and have this feeling like i'm resting my arms on some invisible softly inflated rubber ball.. the meditation is effortless and it seems i could stand there for hours.. now, if i had the where-with-all to get that into my live training, celebration would be in order.. Another great benefit of "post standing" is the subtle alignment adjustments that reduce fatigue and reduce resistance to smooth Qi flow.. time after time i find more and more small corrections that make big differences, very rewarding..

In short, Zham Zhong has become a integral part of my routine and i recommend it for any serious practitioner..

Be well..

[Ou Ji]

Depends on what you want dude?

If you want to feel chi or you want to heal with the hands, you want spiritual enlightenment, or a type of ging you will do different type of chi kung for different things.

For starters I'm just looking to feel the qi but I'll take any of the benefits that go with the training.

One question Ou Ji, how low were you in your stance while you were practising any standing posture?

In the course of my external training there is a standing posture that's done in a low stance, as low as you can go. The TC training included a standing breathing exercise that is done with just a slight bend in the knees.

Let me get this straight - the wuji posture is not the same as the 'tree hugger'? Wuji is arms down and 'tree hugger' is arm up? Anybody got a Chinese name for 'tree hugger'?

I'm guessing I should be starting with arms down and only advance to arms up when they can be lifted by qi alone?

I've also seen the 'tree hugger' posture done is a very low stance during one of my visits to China. So should it be done high or low?

[TonyM.]

You should do quiet sitting meditation with your mind on your lower dan tian at least until you have built a fire and know what it feels like. Standing comes later.

[Scott R. Brown]

Hi Scott...I have not heard of anyone by-passing the physical torture of the external training to reach the liberation of internal gifts.. so, i assume they are the Yang/Yin aspects of this discipline..

Hi Bob,

Of course my first question would be, “Have you tried or known anyone who has tried?”
__________________________________________________ ____________

I was able to perform this skill without any Chi Kung or Tai Chi training at all. I learned it “on my own” without a teacher 27 years ago long before Chi Kung was well known and had become the fad it is today. I hadn’t even heard of Chi Kung yet.

In the past I have stated that the methods of training many follow and believe are the ONLY method to accomplish their specific purpose should be considered merely “A” method of training and not “THE” method of training. Many become attached to the illusion that the method they are learning is the only TRUE way! There is NEVER only one method to achieve anything.

Most of the time the popular methods of training are not the quickest or easiest methods to learn. It is commonly the most exotic appearing methods that attract the largest number of followers. Exotic methods allow the beginner and limited thinkers to think they are learning something unique and special; this makes the student feel special and unique. The need to feel special and unique is an emotional attachment that must be transcended if one wishes to gain deeper understanding! These feelings also lead to prideful attitudes that limit ones deeper understanding as well!

While I appreciate the various methods of Chi Kung training, they are NOT necessary to develop ones Chi and may actually become an impediment to training. It isn’t the exercises that create the impediment, but ones mental fixation (attachment) upon the exercises as the ONLY way to accomplish the purpose. This attitude leads to an attachment to superficial form that must be transcended at some point in order for advance progress to be gained. It is the ATTACHMENT that causes the difficulty not the exercises. My attitude has always been, “Why carry the extra weight when it serves no useful purpose and will just have to be discarded once one realizes it was never necessary to begin with?”

Sometimes it is the romantic and mystical feeling of a training method that attracts the student. As if in line with the teachings of Lao Tzu, my method is “simple and not special”! There are no fancy movements, breathing exercises or complicated philosophy required. You don’t even have to stand up, LOL!!!!

The sensation you have described is very descriptive of the sensation I have experienced as well so I can confirm your experience from my own.

As I have posted many times in the past, if an individual finds benefit in their training method that is good for them, but don’t think it is anything special. Because it isn’t!

[cam]

Ou Ji, you ask how low you should go while training standing.
As low as you wish BUT if you have to sacrifice your alignment or any hope of getting song in your posture, you're too low.
Standing is all about alignment, without alignment there is no song, no qi cultivation, no kungfu, you're just wasting you're time. Might as well get a bag of crystals and write posts about mystical qi powers.
This is my third attempt,PLEASE don't delete it!