Questions about Tai Shing Pek Kwar

[Sow Choy]

Hi Jeff,

From what I have seen of Hak Fu Moon, I have seen some videos, I think it was you that posted them a while back... To me Black Tiger definitely was a southern art ... and I could see the use of stance and hands similar to Hung and the many offshoots...

Pek Kwar is a northern art, and Kwan Tak Hoi exchanged with many masters... Gene Ching put a nice article about a form in their curiculumn where your hands are tied together... Apparently, Kwan Tak Hoi met a descendant of Wu Song mountain who is related to a legendary hero who fought off opponents with his hands tied... Alot of groundwork, Kwan Tak Hoi's Day Tong was pretty good, so he was able to learn from this other master, and passed him some pek kwar sets...

In the black tiger in their style I see some double tiger strikes at the collar bone area that i dont see in the hung stuff usually, CLF has this way of striking, I may be wrong and Hung has it too... But the direction changes I am referring to are striking and stepping in while changing the feet to the corners...

When done at normal speed it seems to have some stomping, charcteristic in some northern styles...

Also if I remember correctly... there was some jump and spins... To me I would say its definitely Northern... I will ask more and try to get some info for you Jeff... I know you are into Black Tiger so I will do my best to get some info on this particular tiger for you....

Take care...

Joe

[jmd161]

Hi Jeff,

From what I have seen of Hak Fu Moon, I have seen some videos, I think it was you that posted them a while back... To me Black Tiger definitely was a southern art ... and I could see the use of stance and hands similar to Hung and the many offshoots...

Yes, i posted a couple of the forms that resembled Hung Kuen for ppl to see.
What most ppl don't know is, that when Su Hak Fu created Black Tiger. He created it from 17 different styles both Northern and Southern. Our Night Tiger set (Ye Fu Kuen) many say looks like Choy Lay Fut and our Gum Gong Kuen (Golden Buddha) is 100% northern shaolin. We usually only talk about the Hung resemblence, because most ppl don't know about the other arts within Black Tiger.

Most people only know of the fact that it came from the same Sil Lum Tiger claw system that bore Hung Gar. Su Hak Fu took what he felt was the best of these various northern and southern shaolin systems and created his style.

In the black tiger in their style I see some double tiger strikes at the collar bone area that i dont see in the hung stuff usually, CLF has this way of striking, I may be wrong and Hung has it too... But the direction changes I am referring to are striking and stepping in while changing the feet to the corners...

When done at normal speed it seems to have some stomping, charcteristic in some northern styles...

Well, it could have also come from Shantung Black Tiger which is a Northern China Black Tiger style... The stepping you speak of sounds like stepping we do though. In Sil Lum Hak Fu Muhn we skip,shuffle,hop,jump,stomp, etc.... with our stepping also.

Also if I remember correctly... there was some jump and spins... To me I would say its definitely Northern... I will ask more and try to get some info for you Jeff... I know you are into Black Tiger so I will do my best to get some info on this particular tiger for you....

Take care...

Joe

Thanks for all your help Joe!!

It was actually "you" that help me find my Black Tiger sifu although, Be it by accident. I worked at the North Lauderdale Home Depot not far from your school. I came in to speak with you and Master Li Siu Hung, you showed me around and talked to me and showed me the Kung Fu Qigong issue with Li Siu Hung on the cover. That issue was about Drunken Choy Lay Fut , i also told you that i had met Grandmaster Lee Koon Hung at the tournament you guys had in 1994 in weston and he remembered me anytime he saw me afterwards. Which meant alot to me, that a man of his stature would remember a scrub like me.

I was the big black guy with the gold teeth kinda hard to forget or miss LOL

I actually interupted your workout with Li Siu Hung,sorry! lol

But in that issue i read about Hak Fu Muhn and found out that C.Kuen Woo (my sifu) actually lived in miami. The rest is history.


jeff

[jmd161]

Hey Joe,


I tried to send these pics to you through pm, but it didn't work. I decided to upload them here so you could see if you or your sifu know any of the CLF sifu and Masters in the pics. This was in Hong Kong in the early 70's it was for my sigung Grandmaster Wong Cheung. He's sitting in the middle of pic black_tiger_2 right on the line. My sifu is the fourth person to his right and youngest person sitting in that row. He was 25 at the time of the picture and chairman of the Black Tiger Assoc.

You'll notice in pic black_tiger_1 Grandmaster Chiu Kao and his wife to the far left, they are the partents of Grandmaster Chiu Chi Ling and Grandmaster Chiu Wai of Hung Gar fame.

thanks for all your help Joe!!


jeff

[truffy64]

I lived with HK long times, and pratical with fifferents masters, and indeed, Pekkwar now is a mixture with several styles (for this reason 120 forms).
At the time of Chi Woo, there were several mixtures, the other styles (tang lang, clf...)also il ya not as many forms at the origin for the pek kwar

[truffy64]

seriously, it is impossible to learn more than 100 forms to defend… that is useless…

[firepalm]

Tai Shing Pekwar is a composite style, as mentioned in the previous post there are the Tai Shing forms & the Pekwar (Pi Gua) forms. The other forms if you look at a complete syllabus include Baji Quan, Black Tiger, My Jong, Yen Ching, Chen Taiji (depending on whom you learn from), etc...

Oddly many of Chan Sau Chung's top guys ie; Seen Lum Yuk, Chow Keung, Chen Kune Tai, etc... were not schooled in the entire system of forms nonetheless they went onto become top full contact fighters in the Southeast Asian circuit. And if I am not mistaken most had not learnt the Monkey routines at that time. Their success as full contact fighters many have said was not due learning the vast number of forms in the style but rather the progressive approach that Chan took at the time in training fighters (ie; conditioning, bag training, sparring & such).

[CLFNole]

From the list of Chan Sifu's students you mentioned above Sifu Chow Keung did learn most of the sets including the monkey sets. My kung fu brother and I trained with him and the guy knows a ton of stuff.

He did talk about Chan Sifu;s ways of training them for full contact back in the day and man was it tough. It is no wonder they all did so well when fighting.

[mooyingmantis]

From the list of Chan Sifu's students you mentioned above Sifu Chow Keung did learn most of the sets including the monkey sets. My kung fu brother and I trained with him and the guy knows a ton of stuff.

He did talk about Chan Sifu;s ways of training them for full contact back in the day and man was it tough. It is no wonder they all did so well when fighting.

At one website that I visited it mentioned that Chow Keung only taught three of the monkey forms: lost, stone and drunken. Is that incorrect? From what I have read it seems Chan Sau Chung's son is the only one that Chan Sau Chung taught all the monkey sets to.

[Flying-Monkey]

At one website that I visited it mentioned that Chow Keung only taught three of the monkey forms: lost, stone and drunken. Is that incorrect? From what I have read it seems Chan Sau Chung's son is the only one that Chan Sau Chung taught all the monkey sets to.

Sifu Chan Kai leung is not the only one.

[Sow Choy]

Some more info...

Master Chow Keung and his sihings didn't learn forms as fast when younger... They did concentrate on full-contact more... In the older days people would pay more money to learn more sets... Chow Keung didn't learn monkey until his early 40's he is 60 now...

These days it seems on here with some... People are bcoming Indian Jones Looking for the lost forms and so much importance on how they are passed... With Kwan Tak Hoi, he would learn techniques or forms and when they were from a style like Mizhong, he only kept the techniques he liked and filled the gaps with pek kwar...

So the attitude and mind set of the older generation should be considered when talking of forms...

BTW... there is also a Monkey staff... And as far as I remember there is only 1 Black Tiger set in their curriculum...

Joe

[Flying-Monkey]

Some more info...

Master Chow Keung and his sihings didn't learn forms as fast when younger... They did concentrate on full-contact more... In the older days people would pay more money to learn more sets... Chow Keung didn't learn monkey until his early 40's he is 60 now...

These days it seems on here with some... People are bcoming Indian Jones Looking for the lost forms and so much importance on how they are passed... With Kwan Tak Hoi, he would learn techniques or forms and when they were from a style like Mizhong, he only kept the techniques he liked and filled the gaps with pek kwar...

So the attitude and mind set of the older generation should be considered when talking of forms...

BTW... there is also a Monkey staff... And as far as I remember there is only 1 Black Tiger set in their curriculum...

Joe

There also is a monkey broad sword and monkey judge pens

[Sow Choy]

FM...

The broadsword set... is that performed while acting like a monkey? Because Chow Keung saw someone doin that as well as a spear set and said it was not real... I thought the pen was a pek kwar set... Were u refering to pek kwar dahn do? Love to hear your info...

Joe

[Flying-Monkey]

FM...

The broadsword set... is that performed while acting like a monkey? Because Chow Keung saw someone doin that as well as a spear set and said it was not real... I thought the pen was a pek kwar set... Were u refering to pek kwar dahn do? Love to hear your info...

Joe

The broadsword set i am talking about is a monkey set. I have never seen it, but I heard this from my sifu and sigung. The is more than one pen set.

[MonkeyKingUSA]

I have three questions for those in the know in TSPK.
Does CSC's TSPK have a ring form like Paulie Zink demonstrates on his tape?
Are any of the sets that Paulie Zink performs in his tapes a part of CSC's TSPK?
Please no Zink bashing. These are honest questions.
Any idea when the TSPK website will be back up?

[MonkeyKingUSA]

Sifu Chan Kai leung is not the only one.

Now, Grandmaster Chan and his son, Master Chan Kai Leung, are two of the only people who know all five monkey kungfu styles.


From the article in Kung Fu Magazine (2001) that seems to be the impression. Who else learned all five monkey forms?