NPM v. SPM

[Trey]

Hello everyone, im new here and was wondering what the difference is between these two styles. Ive noticed the topic brought up in another section of the board recently, but there was no real conclusive answer.

[Sifu Darkfist]

Southern styles have the characteristics needed to fight on the southern terrain which is full of foot hills mountains etc. thus the stances are wider which exacts more stability, however it does sacrifice mobility to some extent. Also they originally spent more time on boats fighting in naval battles due to river traffic being far higher in the south so this also influenced the lower stances.

I have also been informed through reliable sources that the Southern Chinese are considerably smaller than those in the north so many aspects of their combat arts reflect compensation for these realities.

Southern styles for the most part contain much more hard style than soft (although this is not always the case) systems that are derived out of the south tend to branch from Shaolin and retain much of the shoalin tendencies Such as Hung Gar, White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis etc.

There is also the factor of HonG KOng which is well known for injecting its own flavor into styles that end up on its shores, and in many ways can be considered not north or south in look and flavor but a strong combination of these and a raw city additive.
In the end thy are all good for different reasons and should all be respected equally.

[Trey]

Thank you darkfist, that was exactly what i was looking for.

[CHAZ]

Southern styles have the characteristics needed to fight on the southern terrain which is full of foot hills mountains etc. thus the stances are wider which exacts more stability, however it does sacrifice mobility to some extent. Also they originally spent more time on boats fighting in naval battles due to river traffic being far higher in the south so this also influenced the lower stances.

I have also been informed through reliable sources that the Southern Chinese are considerably smaller than those in the north so many aspects of their combat arts reflect compensation for these realities.

Southern styles for the most part contain much more hard style than soft (although this is not always the case) systems that are derived out of the south tend to branch from Shaolin and retain much of the shoalin tendencies Such as Hung Gar, White Crane, Southern Praying Mantis etc.

There is also the factor of HonG KOng which is well known for injecting its own flavor into styles that end up on its shores, and in many ways can be considered not north or south in look and flavor but a strong combination of these and a raw city additive.
In the end thy are all good for different reasons and should all be respected equally.

Good post

but I thought it was the Northern part of China that was hilly and mountanious, and that because of all the walking and having to wear heavy bulky clothing Northern styles tended to favour the legs.

While the Southern styles because of the hot humid weather and because it was mostly farming(rice) country with the farmers standing for hours squating in low stances in rice paddies developed strong low stances. Also like you said with some cases training on junks also meant low stances. Also with citys in the south being crowded and with buildings being close together hands were used more as there was less room for using footwork and high kicks.

Of course some people think this is just a popular story as it's well know that some styles of Southern Kung Fu can kick very well like Mok Gar and Hung Gar was famous for it no shadow kick. While Northern styles such as Northern Mantis and Hsing I for example are more famous for there hands.

[Sifu Darkfist]

I am actually looking at a map with relief right now there are far more mountains in populated areas in the center and south although there are mountains every where.
However i will say that the fact that there are Praying Mantis in the North and South proclaims the effectiveness in its own right.

[mantis108]

Well, here's what I could imagine:

The SPM guy (whatever styles) is going to assume a ready stance.

1) Feet about shoulder width, toes inward and gripping the floor, and relatively high and relaxed yet all slacks in the body structure tightened.

2) Hands up in some kind of a guard (bai Jong Sau) most likely right pheonix eye punch and left hand a palm.

3) Elbows down and closing access to the center line.

4) Head leveled to lower (chin tugged). Chest hollow, back rounded, and Dan Tien is firm.

This would also have the hip a little more squarely facing the opponent. The advantage is the it will have all weapons available to him.

The NPM guy (say a TJPMer) is going to be mobile more or less in a Bi Shi (closing posture). He will be bringing in the Monkey disposition and footwork for searching an opening in the ready stance of the opponent.

Assuming there is not eye poking and groin shorts, here's what will happen.

Strategy for the SPM guy:

It is more than likely the SPM will wait for the other guy to initiate.

1) Stop Kick to the knee of the opponent and pheonix eye punch (PEP) to an openning of the opponent preferrably a weak point (ie throat)

2) Toe trap and PEP in rapid succession. Follow in if opp. retreats in time. Maintain straight line attacks.

3) If opp attemps to block punch while arm stretched out; clam down hard with elbows as breaks or with grinding motion to trap temporary. Or some types of hooking punch or down angled punch as "leaking" hand.

4) Keep opp in front and at bay. Don't want to give any access to the side or back. Stomp and stop kicks to distroy the opp's lower line attacks.

5) End fight as soon as possible. Use angle entry avoid getting hit as much as possible but will absorb punishment if need be (points deducted in that case).

6) use sallow, spit, surface, and sink to unbalance the opp in close range and to add more omph to the strikes.

Strategy for the NPM guy:

It is more than likely that the NPM guy will initiate some form of attack (ie a back hand slap.) and attempt a disciplined plan of offense.

1) will use the 12 key words with 5 types of Shou Fa (ie Gou Lou Cai, Fanche Lulu, Mo Pan Shou, etc..) for entry and take whatever that is available. Discipline takes over after the initial clash.

2) close gap as quickly as possible. Sticking and leaning as soon as an opening is availble. Using Shuai (throwing) and Na (grappling) to takedown.

3) Dodging, Deceiving, leaping and shifting to get to the side and/or back of opp.

4) In close range elbow hard and knee hard.

5) Takedown and establish control. Ground fighting if necessary.

BTW, that's only my perspective and experience as NPM guy (CCK TCPM). Others may drastically different. I would take as long as it needs to finish the fight. My motto is "make haste without being hasty", "using slow to yield to the fast" and "Don't fight fire with fire, be like water...".

The rest of course is depended upon the contestants and it's highly speculative until proven with actual match.

Mantis108

Although geography and genetics might have helped in sharping the styles but the developmental path is mainly determined by the practical application of the them.

Traditionally or historically, there are 5 major professions that a martial artist can enter - Military, Teaching, body guards, armed escorts, and green forrest.

The military policy of Ming dynasty gave a lot of stability to the country but at the same time it pretty much promote the Men Pai (System and Style) idea and deepened the conflicts between systems and styles. The military also influenced the martial arts mainly in the south due to the Japanese pirate problem. For example, spear, stick and saber forms are uniformly present in almost every style and 2 men set of any weapon against spear is almost common in every southern style. Why? Because spear was the standard issue for soliders throughout the time since ming dynasty. If the military were to come after you, it is more than likely that you will fight against a spear or 2. So it's important to know that just in case. Also if you have to train some one fast you will want him to know everything with one thing both for the military or rebels. That is to say the hand to hand and weapon prefereably would share some thing in common (ie in theory or applications). So it is ideal to have double cleaver and stick fighting along side with the form(s). This you can found in styles such as Weng Chun (Yong Chun) - double cleavers are the parents and the staff is the teacher, etc... I think Gojo Ryu Karate also has the same idea in their Gekisai (sp?) form also.

Anyway, the core theory of the system IMHO would be the primary driving force of the developmental path and the geography and genetics are only secondary.

Warm regards

Mantis108

[Three Harmonies]

Geography reasons are BS.
Jake

[Sifu Darkfist]

if thats true than how do we explain cantonese and mandarin? I guess the mountain barrier and uncrossable rivers for centuries preventing widespread interaction are all bs. hey how about extreme size differences in people, or food?

Geography has nothing to do with differences?

ALL THESE things mentioned have direct influence on style

[J-hon]

Southern styles have the characteristics needed to fight on the southern terrain which is full of foot hills mountains etc. thus the stances are wider which exacts more stability, however it does sacrifice mobility to some extent. Also they originally spent more time on boats fighting in naval battles due to river traffic being far higher in the south so this also influenced the lower stances.

Maybe for for most southern styles, but certainly not in Jook Lum Southern Praying Mantis. The stance is in fact about shoulder width apart (although I prefer it slightly wider).

As for punches, in Jook Lum SPM, srikes are usually up close and short. The long strikes that are present do have do not lock the elbow. Emphasis is on being up close within a six inch or so striking range. Punches do not use muscular strength to create power but rather a sudden reflex type motion (I can best explain it like this.... If someone were to put a match out on your hand... imagine how fast the arm would move by reflex.) I can't say to much more on that since I haven't been able to completely control this. But if you want to look at something similar to one of our punches, watch Bruce Lee's one inch punch. Most importantly though.... the body is relaxed, except when contact is made.

Arms are the main weapons but we do have kicks which are low, below the waist.

These links can explain better:
http://www.reddragonkungfu.com/chuka.htm
http://cclib.nsu.ru/projects/satbi/s.../wushu/sm.html (very lengthy and informative)

Any SPM practicers want to add to or correct this?

I'd like to hear about Northern Praying Mantis strikes if anyone could elaborate.

J-Hon

[bungbukuen]

Sifu Darkfist,

Are you saying that factors like geography are more substantial than other ones like individual personality traits, society, demagrphics, politics, economics, war/military, technology, rival competition, and education?

[mpossoff]

Which PM style would resemble Tong Bei?

That's what I'm interested in.

Marc

[BeiTangLang]

Which PM style would resemble Tong Bei?

That's what I'm interested in.

Marc

Northern PM

[Sifu Darkfist]

Sifu Darkfist,

Are you saying that factors like geography are more substantial than other ones like individual personality traits, society, demagrphics, politics, economics, war/military, technology, rival competition, and education?

of course not, i would refer you back to mantis 108 and his post. However to up and deny geography as a major factor is false. Why then name them southern and northern? why not praying mantis one and 2 or something else. the point is China was for a long time very polarized and geography was a major player. as well as all that mantid put forth and everything else mentioned here. I just mentioned geography as my angle due to the mass polarization.

This is a question that has no single right answer just as most perspectives on history have none either.

[mantid1]

I think it comes down to who promoted their styles the most in a particular area. Then we have the off shoots of the foundation style.

It seems to me that Southern white crane, white eye brow, southern mantis and wing chun may have the same mother.

General statement of course.

I also like enjoy seeing the Karate styles that hold true the thier Chinese roots. Many techniques resemble these Southern styles. For example San Chin Kata. Looks alot like the san tsan of White crane.

Many legite Karate styles refer back the the southern styles including southern mantis. One of my x students is a "master" in tang soo do. He told me that one of thier forms is praying mantis. TSD has its roots in Okinawan Karate. After seeing the form I said "yep but Southern not Northern manties".

[Shadow Skill]

don't know much about northern mantis but, spm has 13 features that make it unique.
1 spm internal system. focus internal power rathern muscle strength
2 more techniques than most systems inc. sticky hands and feet
3 uses opponents strength aginst him/her
4 relys on feeling hands act as if they had eyes.....
5 each formula has a two or more person break down
6 learns to use each limb independantly of any other limb
7 fighting is relaxed conteniuos and flowing
8 techniques are practiced exactly the way they are used no show
9 spm is a short cut system
10 spm has more than one power
11 although spm practices high kicks prefer low kicks for combat
12 uses dim mak to produce injury or death
13 spm based on taoist pholosiphy, practioner requires no contious thought to react.