Updating the nomenclature in Tai Chi classics?

[SPJ]

In the other forum, there was a debate about updating the terms in CMA; using the science or physic terms instead.

Tai Chi 13 postures Peng Lu Ji An Cai Lie Zhou Kao are replaced with directional vectors.

Yi or intent is replaced with intentional activity.

Qi flow is replaced with power/strength transmission.

Jing/Jin is replaced with tendon power.

Luo Xuan Jing is replaced with circling tendon power.

etc.

What is your comment?

[SPJ]

I argued against it. We may place our notes next to the terms.

Chinese words or terms have many meanings depending on the context and where they are used.

I know that the "archaic" words are hard to understand. Oftentimes, the understanding of the whole things are from practice only.

Peng is Peng.

You may say outward, upward extending vector. In general, it is correct. However, sometimes, it also means inward and downward.

Cai is downward suddenly. It may also mean from out inward and upward. As if you pick a flower or even pluck a feather or pluck grass.

So if you said Cai is a sudden downward vector. You are not entirely correct.

etc etc.

I have the same confusion in my college days. When I recited the classics and tried to understand them from practices. The words started to show meanings to me. I tried to use alternative modern terms to replace them, I gave up. Instead I　just put notes next to the old terms.

Words are just words. Whatever better to communicate is ok.

Every style may use the same words to mean different things, postures etc.

The answer is from the practice.

[Brad]

Tendon power?

Anyway, I think alot of people don't have any better understanding of scientific English terms than the Chinese terms they would want to replace... They would more often than not misrepresent what they're trying to describe. Is "tendon power", for example, really a scientific western term? Would the average English speaker really understand what "bioelectricity" is any better than qi? Would "bioelectricity" really account for some of the things qi is traditionaly supposed to be responsible for? One thing I don't like is teachers with advanced degrees giving advice on issues outside of their expertese... *Does having a Phd in Mechanical Engineering or Chemistry make someone an expert on biology, medicine, and exercise science?

Two real life things I've come across...

[SPJ]

Lu is actually a following Jing. to the left, right, downward etc

Cai can be in a vertical and horizontal curve or circle and sometimes straight downward.

Lie is horizontal to the opponent's Jing. Lie can be upward, downward, laterally etc.

My point was that it will not work if you use replacement terms (in the thread I argued).

[Brad]

Every style may use the same words to mean different things, postures etc.

Good point... you can't really come up with good specific English translations if the native Chinese speakers don't all have the same meanings for the words themselves

[J-hon]

I think its about time that these "powers" have been given a scientific update. I have nothing against the traditional theories, but they can all be explained through pure logic and reasoning. The only reason that many of these "powers" have been look at as mystical is because they've just recently been spread widely through western culture. 50 years ago, how many white guys practiced chi excersizes and were looked at as sane?

When I learned about Jing, I was dumbstruck. I never knew you punch hard without using much (or any - as it should be when mastered) muscular strength. These reflexes are derived from tendons but I'm not sure if "tendon strength" would be the best decription. Now that I've been praticing it I realize this "explosive power" is a reflex controlled by the mind rather than an external stimulus. You create the kind of reaction similar to being suddenly *****ed with a needle. edit - that says p r i c k e d - edit

Science can explain everything from love to the Jersey Devil. While it is in the western additude to discount the existence on a hellish looking creature jumping around the rooftops of New Jersey, whats important to remember is that anything is possible..... theres just gotta be some logic in play.

J-Hon

[Wong Fei Hong]

I would have to say thats the most retarded thing ive come across in all my life, ive seen some ******* things about martial arts trad /modern chi etc, but this is way beyond that.
What the hell has qi flow got to do with power or strength transmission, You could strain and transmit strength till you sh1t a truck out of your a$$ but you still wont flow chi from one person to another wether to heal or to whatever.

[joedoe]

CMA is a part of Chinese culture, and the terms should remain in Chinese. We don't Anglicise fencing terms, even though they are French.

[J-hon]

CMA is a part of Chinese culture, and the terms should remain in Chinese.

Why?

We don't Anglicise fencing terms, even though they are French.

Why not?

Whats so wrong with translation?

How are we to explain something in English if we only get a Chinese word for it.
Honestly, I think its fine to keep a technique with its Chinese name, but if I'm going to understand it... you need to explain it to me in plain English. "Explosive power" or "life energy" gives me a vague idea of what you may be talking about, but if you explain it to more with more depth and with concepts that I'm familiar with then, with all due respect, I'm going to drop all these mystical Chinese power concepts and get down to the science of the fight. Now I'm not trying to say that fighting needs to be science, just that all movements can be explained through science, reasoning, logic, etc.... that kinda deal.

J-Hon

[Wong Fei Hong]

I dont think translation is a bad thing, i think what sucks is when the meaning is lost in translation for one like i said before qi is not strength transmission, fa-li is strength transmission or more emission.
Jing is not tendon power, jing is "power gained from working out over time", or "strength put into practise as power" whether its from improving body mechanics or from weight training and relaxing or from qi gong
jing is also your man juice but thats spelt differently.
yi isnt so much intentional activity i.e intension, but its where you put your mind, ie at the dantien in the punch etc.

as for the directional vectors
ward off, roll back, press, push, pluck, split, elbow dont show directions to me.

For one whoever did the translations might as well have renamed things to moves of chacha as that would have has the same meaning being retained.
and for 2 the whole concept of tai chi lies in internal energy, if you remove that , since the west doesnt believe in it , then tai chi is an excersise strictly for the ret@rded,failing that its mental masturb@tion at best.
I mean who the hell would believe that scientifically moving slowly in preset motions for your entire life will give you good health remove illness and make you tougher and a good fighter.
Its whole basis is qi theory !

I agree with spj last comment the answer is in the practise, if someone tells you what jing is or qi is you wont even believe them let alone feel it or be able to translate it adequately.

[J-hon]

Do you happen to know a reliable website about qi theory? I've seen a lot of different sites but they conflict a lot. I myself know nothing, but I don't want to start off with something completely bogus.

Oh and I just noticed.... I've been saying Jing instead of Fa Jing... what I'm talking about is the power in SPM strikes (I'm sure its used in other styles but I wont go on making generalizations). And if someone could tell me what Fa means and then together with Jing, I would be very grateful. Thanks in advance.

[SPJ]

CMA is a part of Chinese culture, and the terms should remain in Chinese. We don't Anglicise fencing terms, even though they are French.

Yes. Chinese culture and language can be barriers.

If you are jealous, we would say you are drinking or eating vinegar or Chi Zhu. because you feel bitter and sour etc.

Lu may be defined as a following the opponent main Jing.

We may then add directions to it. Such as left Lu, right Lu, downward Lu etc. In addition, there are also lateral and outward Jing from rotating your waist when you do left or right Lu. So in this respect, there is Peng in your Lu.

In downward Lu, there is An initially. It is also Peng downward. If do it fast enough, it is Cai. Lu is generally light with palms and continuing.

Understanding of theory is from practice.

Without the practice, we would be lost very fast.

[David Jamieson]

Understanding of theory is from practice.

this is what really matters. over intellectualization of tactile motion or martial expression just moves you away from doing and practicing. We can ruminate forever on meanings and subtle variations to those meanings and then compound our confusion with dialectic dischord, in the end it doesn't have that much of an impact compared to teh actual doing of these things.

[TonyM.]

As these words do not translate into ideas commonly understood in english I think this is the worst thing you could do to the classics.
P.S. I wish someone had said this to james tudor.

[SevenStar]

CMA is a part of Chinese culture, and the terms should remain in Chinese. We don't Anglicise fencing terms, even though they are French.

I disagree. If you can make a term more understandable, go for it. cma is part of chinese culture, but it's being trained in a western world. The local language terminology is not necessary in order for me to understand the technique. In thai boxing, if I say "foot jab", the meaning is conveyed more easily to a newb than "teep". If in judo I say "hiza guruma", a newb will look at me funny. However, if I say "knee wheel" it's more understandable.

I am experiencing this right now in a capoeira class. the instructor teaches in portuguese. I can speak spanish to a decent degree, so I can make sense of a lot of what he's saying. When I miss something, I look around, and if he notices, he repeats it in english. I understand why he teaches in portuguese - especially with an art like capoeira - but he is just doing double the work when he stops and repeats himself in english.