hahahha Too bad there was no Bird flu otherwise they would both be ****ed up!! hahaha LOL and the white sheet was for there death beds.
hahaha
FT
Sorry guys had to use that!
Banned
hahahha Too bad there was no Bird flu otherwise they would both be ****ed up!! hahaha LOL and the white sheet was for there death beds.
hahaha
FT
Sorry guys had to use that!
Registered User
I agree that there's no reason to use a story as evidence for one art being superior to another as they are both powerful, complex styles.
Also, according to your version of events, several members of the royal family witnessed one style get "owned" by the other. If this were the case then I would say it would have been more likely to have been Bagua "owning" Taiji rather than the other way around. Why? Because Yin Fu, Dong Hai Chuan's premier student, was hired as head bodyguard for the Guangxu Emperor and the Empress Dowager (the real ruler) in 1900... several years after the deaths of Dong and YLC. If the royal family had really seen Bagua get taken apart by Taiji then why would they have hired a Bagua master and his students to protect the safety of its highest-ranking members?
What senses do we lack that we cannot see or hear another world all around us?
--The Orange Catholic Bible
Registered User
Yeah, when the Emporer the Yang family was serving passed away, they lost their job and became quite down and out. It is quite common in Chinese history that when a new Emporer takes the thrown, a lot of the old ministers would be fired to create positions for the new Emporer's "inner circle" to take their posts. Some of them may even get executed!
When YJH lost his job, his family ended up staying with the palace gardener Wang Song Lu as "guests" for a number of years.
Cheers,
John
Moo Moo
Yes. Chinese politics and history were always shrouded in clouds or mists.
Some said emperor Guang Xu was "poisoned" by Ci Xi Tai Hou.
He passed away young a day before Ci Xi.
The two crashed over the reforms or New Deals in so many ways. He proposed to use the New party Kang You Wei to restructure the whole political systems. All those in power opposed to any changes.
However, Bei Yang minister Li Hong Zhang and associate in the south Zhang Zhi Dong managed to implement some modernizations under the old way/system.
Qing was left with the 3 year old Pu Yi.
All the power went to Yuan Shi Kai.
Republican revolution was on the way by Dr. Sun Yat Sen.
http://www.cdot.org/links/emperor_pu_yi.htm
http://www.jilin.gov.cn/whg/py-en.htm
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Last edited by SPJ; 11-17-2005 at 11:34 PM.
Moo Moo
http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/baguatjq.html
It was said that Yang Lu Chan, Dong and Guo Yun Shen worked together.
Ba Gua Tai Chi fist was created.
Sifu
The version of the story that is told by the Wu family (through Yang Pan-hou) was that the fight was fierce but that Dong was able to keep up for the most part. They say Yang was impressed that anyone could keep up at all and that was the end of it, they both worked together from then on.Originally Posted by imperialtaichi
After 1870, the Yangs retired from Imperial service (for whatever reason) and started teaching privately (as did Wu Ch'uan-yu). By 1914, Yang Shoa-hou, Yang Ch'eng-fu, Wu Chien-ch'uan and Sun Lu-t'ang were all teaching out of the same school.
Stories become embellished, half-forgotten and combined over the years (the bird in the hand was a separate story, originally), so who knows? In court they'd say that, evidentially, none of the principals are still alive so none of it stands up to close scrutiny. If you believe your teachers are good, train what they give you and don't pay too much attention to a load of gossip about 150 year old stories.
Registered User
Precisely. The stories serve only as "side dishes" to make things a bit more fun and colourful and give us a sense of history. Unless the stories give us insight into particular training/expression methods it is quite uneccessary to pay too much importance on it.
It is even less important to pay too much attention on who won, who lost, who is better etc. It is more important that we are working towards our goals (although this goal may be different for everyone). Be it Tai Chi, Bagua, Wing Chun or Sumo.
Cheers,
John
Registered User
Dong Hai Chuan vs Yang Lu Chan
Hello John,The white curtains weren't silly; even though in the palace, there will be guards of lower ranks around. It would be not be wise for them to witness who won or who lost.
As from a chronological point of view, I do take you point. I will be seeing my teacher in Beijing mid December. I will confirm with him the story.
As for who won.... of course from our Yang line the story would be rather biased. Since there were not written records made, so I can imagine different lines from different styles will say different things. I just listen to stories and repeat them. There is no way to verify them.
Therefore, I would like to remain neutral. Afterall, both arts are great arts, and both DHC and YLC (or YJH) were top fighters at the time and we should acknowledge their achievements.
Cheers,
John
From another thread you posted, I found out that you have seen your teacher in Beijing. Since I found the story quite interesting, I wonder if you have been able to confirm the story with your sifu?
Thanks for your reply,
Francesco
Bagua, Xingyi, and Taiji
Yes, at about that time my Sifu's sifu, Lee Wing Wah, studied under Yang Shao-hou and his father Yang Chien-hou learning their Yang Imperial, as well as Sun Lu-tang for his Bagua and Xingyi. I can only imagine how cool it must have been to train at that time.
Registered User
i think they were both chickenthe legend said that:
One day, a king asked them to fight in the backyard.
Dong walked in a circle around Yang. Yang stayed put in the center and prepared.
Nothing happened. After 10 min, the king got bored and said that ok you both are excused.
So they went to the front yard and had a tea party.
Yang held a sparrow in his palm. No matter how hard the bird tried. It could not fly away. Eventually, Yang gently stretched the palm and off flied the sparrow.
They both laughed.
Dong said that I practiced Ba Gua circle or ring and you practiced Tai Chi Ball.
We did not know that if the circle trapped the ball or the ball trapped the circle/ring.
Both laughed.
end of anedote.
what do you think?
Banned
As soon as you say Greatgrand master Dong "walked around" the guy, I know it's A) not a true story ..... and B) whoever perpetrated the story does not know Ba Gua. It's impossible to walk around even a remotely skilled fighter. What, the other guy can't turn?
Turning the other guy so you get behind him, that's another story.
黑暗的水的孩子
I Was Always Under The Impression That That Story Was Untrue. Just The Story Of Dong Hai Chun And Gou Yun Shin. Just Something Made Up. Its Like The Silly Thing People Do Now(if Steven Segal And Jet Li Were Locked In A Room Who Would Win) Crap Like That Means Nothing. If I Ever Asked My Sifu About Stories Like That He Would've Told Me Crap Like That Is Not Going To Help You Become Better So It Is Useless.................
Moo Moo
This is a story circulating in several Chinese forums. I found interesting so I posted here.
I think there are several significances implied by the person or persons who started it.
On technical points:
1. Ba Gua is to walk like pushing a mill or Tui Mo. Tai Chi is to yield all the way, borrow the force and use the force as implied by the bird in the hand.
On political points:
1. the focus is on the latter part of the story. they both sat down and started to discuss.
2. the students would study and "merge" the 2 styles, since the 2 teachers did.
3. then people started to argue which to name the new "combined" style, Ba Gua Tai Chi, or Tai Chi Ba Gua--
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4. the important aspect of the story is that we have the attributes of being humble or humility. we have to be humble first before we may start to learn from each other.
the circle trapping the ball or the ball trapping the circle?
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