Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Praying Mantis connection

[thecrowrains]

Hello fellow forum members,

As a relative newbie to Tai Chi, and Praying Mantis, I hope to find out from any, if there is a lineage ''connection" with these arts, TO THAT OF WING CHUN.

I've been involved in Chinese martial arts (specifically a northern shaolin ''based" art) for a number of years now, but not with the aforementioned.

My former sifu, although very good, charismatic, and sincere, didn't hail from a direct lineage in the mainland: instead having learned from various teachers in New York and Canada.

As my martial path has since changed, I'm now presently learning once a week from a Wu Tan teacher, www.wutanalaska.com , which is original in lineage. Having a new interest in the Bagua, Tai Chi, and inner art strengths common to these arts, I've begun to wonder how effective these arts are IN CLOSE RANGE, as Wing Chun is.

Sort of a broad question, but I've wondered why Wing Chun has sort of existed as purely formless, ie: without a myriad of forms to learn.
1. is there a connection with Wing Chun and Tai Chi/Praying Mantis?
2. is Wing Chun borrowing from Tai Chi/Praying Mantis? vice versa?

thanks,
Eric

[NeedsPractice]

Hello fellow forum members,



As my martial path has since changed, I'm now presently learning once a week from a Wu Tan teacher, www.wutanalaska.com , which is original in lineage. Having a new interest in the Bagua, Tai Chi, and inner art strengths common to these arts, I've begun to wonder how effective these arts are IN CLOSE RANGE, as Wing Chun is.

Sort of a broad question, but I've wondered why Wing Chun has sort of existed as purely formless, ie: without a myriad of forms to learn.
1. is there a connection with Wing Chun and Tai Chi/Praying Mantis?
2. is Wing Chun borrowing from Tai Chi/Praying Mantis? vice versa?

thanks,
Eric

1- wing chun is connected with southern praying mantis as far as them both being close range arts from the same general area of china, and sharing some other similiarites, I dont THINK there is any real connection with tai chi or northern mantis styles
2- I dont believe wing chun is borrowing from tai chi or northern mantis- chi sau is differnent from push hands- although semi- similiar ideas
From my understanding of push hands they are more feeling for an imbalance to exploit and uproot, and also to learn how to yield
wing chun chi sau is for that to a degree but also for feeling for openings to strike
similar but not quite the same.
I have seen tai chi people attempt chi sau but not vice versa, although I have been thinking of trying push hands for the experience

Bagua depending on the style of bagua should be effective up close, as well as tai chi, but wing chun is just a different animal than either of them.

I wouldnt say wing chun is quite formless maybe jsut to the point
in the 3 forms and the wooden man you basically get all the moves/ strikes which can to a degree be combined in endless combination. Also there is alot of "info " packed into the forms
maybe what wing chun has in 3 another system may have in 6 or 10.
They may not look as elaborate as the tai chi forms or others but in many ways wing chun is a direct system in method and practice
Not better just different.

[thecrowrains]

Needspractice,

great reply. thanks.

I agree with you, that Wing Chun has minimal forms (you noted 3), but that those three can be intertwined continuously. Great Point.

Needspractice, have you known if Wing Chun has the same health benefits as those attributed to Tai Chi & the Mantis arts? ? ? There seems to be a MASSIVE amount of inner strength building in the Bagua, Tai Chi, Mantis forms-practice.

*I'm just assuming that anything practiced with great patience and care exhibits some form/type of inner-strength/chi buidling.

peace,
Eric

[Royal Dragon]

I highly doubt Wing Chun is connected to preying mantis or Tai chi. However both Tai Chi and Northern Mantis are connected to eachother as they both are children that evolved out of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

[Liddel]

Hello thecrowrains

A buddist Nun who knew many Shoalin styles devised VT.
So by that rationale we have things in common or some distant connection.

However time is a big indicator, VT is very young compared to other arts and all arts have evolved for the good or the bad, ( i.e add ons or lost knowledge )

So i would say there is a connection.

You ask
"1. is there a connection with Wing Chun and Tai Chi/Praying Mantis?"

Yes they are kung fu systems... the are internal... were you after something more specific ???

"2. is Wing Chun borrowing from Tai Chi/Praying Mantis? vice versa? "

This is a possibility as far as mindset. i.e theories / formulas / goals etc....
again are you looking for something more specific ?


NeedsPractice said
"I have seen tai chi people attempt chi sau but not vice versa"

I have seen VT people attempt Toy Sao,
in fact a female student of my Sifu in the 1970's won the Hong Kong Toy Sao competion without mentioning she was VT not Tai Chi

In Short - i think all arts have similarities, but wether they are on prupose or pure coincident is pure speculation.


Liddel

[mantis108]

There is no known lineage or proof that such connection existed. However, there are circumstancial evidences (not proofs) that could possibly connect the dots so to speak.

In theory, and I stress in theory, Classical Tanglang (Greater Meihwa Line mantis) from Shandong Province could have been influenced by Yong Chun He Fa (Crane method of Yong Chun County, Fujian Province). Yong Chun He Fa (mid 1600s CE) is IMHO prototypical White Crane (Baihe). Yong Chun He Fa also could have become modern day Yong Chun/Weng Chun, Hong Jia/Hung Gar, Wing Chun/WT/VT, Dongjiang Long Xing/East River Dragon Style, etc... The legends of Yong Chun Baihe, Wing Chun and Dongjian Long Xing (or Lung Ying) share something in common. There is a nun teacher (Shaolin nun Ng Mui most of the time). Techniques, concepts and theories in the styles also share some remarkable commonalities.

If there's any real connection between Tanglang, Taiji and Yong Chun He Fa, it would be more of a military tradition than a religious one althought this could not entirely rule out religious cults' connection such as the White Lotus that was quite militant. BTW, Shaolin troops were part of the military structure of Ming dynasty. It is possible IMHO that Shaolin is used mostly as a front for protection of the martial arts.

Mantis108

[NeedsPractice]

While I recognize the similarities btw wing chun and southern mantis I doubt any connection to northern mantis. I dont think anybody claims connection btw southern and northern mantis styles. There is a thread or 2 on that issue.
Wing chun doesnt have the health benefits of say tai chi to my knowledge although there are internal aspects to develop certain abilities.

[thecrowrains]

Liddel,

..is VT Ving Tsun/Tzun? Interesting that you state it to be a new Art. I've read how Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Tzun is an old, ancient Art.

Do you know if Ving Tsun/Tzun will expand to Alaska? I sure wish my community here offered more VARIETY in the ''wing Arts", as there is only one representative school here, that being the Emin Boztepe school, with about three branches.

I happened to enroll in this Boztepe school a few years ago, hoping to become skilled in the close range tactic, but ended up leaving after my second day, as I couldn't keep up with the constant 'knock-downs' and 'chain punch' scenarios the instructor wanted to practice on me. Sort of odd, considering the level of skill I didn't have in Wing Tzun. I realized afterwards he was trying to weed-out the aggressive student from the "non-contact" student that I believe I was. They were not "regularly" punching each other in the face daily during those first two days, but I seemed to be getting the brunt of the contact, maybe because I was the only new student.
HMMMM,,,,maybe if he accepted non-contact, I'd still be enrolled.

As much as I wanted to stay and enjoy this Art, I felt health safeguards were more to my interest.

Liddel, do most "wing Arts" emphasize bashing and bruising? or is it dependent on the teacher's individual style? I'd assume it is just dependent on the teacher, IMHO. I'm sure if I'd been given more chance to ''grow'' into the Art, I'd possibly still be with them.

peace,
Eric

[thecrowrains]

Liddel, Mantis108, Royal Dragon, and others....great replies.

(*this part of my reply seems to have been omitted from the forum so I'll repeat it again).

Everyone's educated answers show just that: sound, well thought out answers to my questions. It's a relief to get such educated answers here.

Aside from my once-per-week class in Wu Tan, I'm still enjoying the benefits of this Art, which is quite different from the Northern Chinese ''based'' Northern Shaolin school I used to attend.

To offset this, if it's a fair assessment, I've been enjoying the sword workout with the Bokken. I realize it's not a Jian sword, common with the Wu Tan school, but the Shifu at Wu Tan Alaska doesn't permit new students to practice them yet. On off-days, it's great to use the Bokken, practicing precise movements common to this sword gives a great overall body workout. www.powerstrike.com

**maybe this time this post won't be omitted.


peace,
Eric

[Liddel]

thecrowrains asked
"is VT Ving Tsun/Tzun? "

Yes my friend it is, Ving Tsun.

"Interesting that you state it to be a new Art. I've read how Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Tzun is an old, ancient Art."

This would be a fair call depending on your point of view, to me VT is very young compared to other styles so i say it is young. 350 years as opposed to thousands of years old is the difference.

Sorry i cant answer your Alaska question, perhaps post on the Wing Chun forum and someone will come out of the woodworks.

Yes its a pitty about your VT experience with the Boztepe school. VT differs from school to school but IMHO it is a gentle martial art and only when you have done the basics should you train hard or full contact.

Its easier to attain skill if you start soft then work towards hard/full contact than vice versa. Unfortunate.

"Liddel, do most "wing Arts" emphasize bashing and bruising? "

- Only the opponent
Its par for the course once you begin to Chi Sao but this is only much later in training not in the first few encounters as you experienced.
It is very much dependent on the teachers style.

Needspractice wrote
"Wing chun doesnt have the health benefits of say tai chi "
You are right, even though there are some health benifits, we learn VT for fighting so health benifits are a benificial bi-product. It improves core strength and ive never been sick other than a cold in the last 8 of the 9 years ive trained and i put it down to Kung Fu.

Cheers for the chat guys. Hope i helped.

[omarthefish]

I highly doubt Wing Chun is connected to preying mantis or Tai chi. However both Tai Chi and Northern Mantis are connected to eachother as they both are children that evolved out of Tai Tzu Chang Chuan.

Wing Chun could theoretically be connected to SOUTHERN Mantis. Southern Mantis and WC are extremely similar and are both southern styles.

btw,

This would be a fair call depending on your point of view, to me VT is very young compared to other styles so i say it is young. 350 years as opposed to thousands of years old is the difference.

Do a little research. There is no evidence of ANY martial art other than wrestling/shuai jiao in it's more generic form is "thousands of years old". 350 years is a stretch even for WC. There is no reliable record of much of anything at all that goes back more than a couple hundred years. Beyond that it's all myth and legend.

There's a SMALL handfull of arts that have evidence suggesting they have roots in the early Qiong dynasty but that's it. Baji, Tai Zu, Xing Yi and maybe Taiji can lay claim to the oldest but we are talking only 400 years or so TOPS.