Does any one have any clips/comments on real chi sau?
By that I mean clips that are of two people doing it that are about the same level and both trying to resist?
- What is real as opposed to unreal chi sau? Chi sau can look like anything. It can look like a nice drill with perfect positions, nice fluid movements etc. , or it can look like a total mess as even some Judo matches between top Olympic competitior's might look. When Wong Shun Leung and Tsui Shan Ting were here, they did some Chi sau together and I thought it looked like a mess compared to how some of us looked but they were more skillful than us. We actually mentioned that to them. Wong Shun Leung commented that when two soccer teams of equal skill compete, then the results will often look messy. When an instructor beats on a student with lessor skill, then he can often do so with beautiful looking technique. Against a beginner anything works. UFC always looks more messy than a choreographied Kung Fu film. However sometimes you can see beautiful form in real fights such as in Western boxing where both parties might stick to good form. Ray
Many of the clips that you see on the net make chi sau look really tight and impressive, and I guess that has put it in my mind that when I perform Chi sau it should be looking like it does on the clips.
- Those are mostly training clips where good form is emphasized. Often new people doing chi sau consider it as kind of an all out sparring matches. When they can't get their hit in with some finess, they resort to messy pushing, pulling, trying to barge their way in when there is no clear opportunity or opening. Both sides get hit 50% of the time, the body wobbles in all kinds of directions, there is no stance, elbows are flying outward and the center is open or arms constantky cross the center. If you rely on brute strength then inevitably the result will look like a big mess. The aim of chi sau is not to look beautiful but good techniques which don't rely on being stronger than your opponent tend to look better than an all out strength against strength fight. -Ray
However, when I do chi sau (granted i haven't been doing it very long) it doesn't look anything like it does on the clips, a lot messier, at lot more resisting, and just a lot more like fighting, I guess.
- I think in that case it is best to slow down the action and see clearly what you are doing. Stop after a couple of movements. As soon as you realize that it's a big struggle, repeat the attack and defence action and analyze what is going on while searching for a more intelligent solution to the problem. If there isn't a clear way to enter then wait for a more appropriate time to enter. I think if a lot of simple actions are drilled a million times then the whoile result will look a lot better. Fighting at too early a stage before the forms have really sunk in, will always lead to some kind of mess. This is not to say that you can't fight. But to fight with style takes a lot of training. -Ray
I guess there are two reasons for this, 1 I am not very good at it, and 2, most of the time the clips are just demonstrations of chi sau drills, or they are of people who are very experienced (i.e. teachers) demostrating on students.
So is real chi sau messy or am I doing something wrong?
- Everything is real chi sau and it can be messy or not messy depending on the circumstances and purpose of your chi sau. You have to ask why is it messy? For example if someone is bobbing and weaving all over the place then that would look like messy chi sau to me. It might be great for two boxers to do but in my opinion Wing Chun people tend to have a different way of fighting. But if you do find you are doing that, then you have to slow down and search for a better solution. If you get shoved back all the time then what's the reason for that? Why did you have to duck or move your head? If someone grabs your arm then do you really have to pull back hard and have sort of a wrestling match or can you just relax the arm and hit with the other arm? I think the more experience you get, the less of a mess chi sau can be. Then again as I mentioned even with top people who really try to compete, it can still be a mess. The difference is that beginners are messy no matter what the circumstance, while more experienced people at least can look pretty clean against those of lessor skill.
I have seen a lot of chi sau where the guy bobs and weaves all over the place when I think it was not necessary to do so. The same attacks could have been handled with better postures and less movement. The goal of our art is to conserve energy by being economical. Minimal movement leads to less mess. If you push and pull with a lot of strength and have all kinds of wild movement then are you really practicing Wing Chun?
Why not try to copy those people on the video clips you think are good and then slowly integrate bits and pieces of that into the fighting? As a minimum train the Lap sau exercise with a few changes a few thousand times and then at least that technique can look good within the chi sau exercise. -Ray
Cheers
Victoria, British Columbia, Wing Chun