Is It Too Late?

[hskwarrior]

I chose to highjack the essence of this thread found in the kung fu forum section.."check it out, its like sanshou..." and it featured supposedly a wing chun school practicing something like sanshou. well, basically on a lower level it was sanshou, (Not bad for training). but for it being a wing chun school, it interested me to see how wing chung would look in the ring.

The only thing i saw "wing chun" was the horse stances. Everything else looked just like san shou (kick boxing mixed with some throws) maybe a little "UFC" because they were landing elbows and knees like thai boxers.

before i ask this question let me preface it by saying "every martial art system has what everyone else has,mostly (basics wise), a punch is a punch a kick is a kick. but. And prior the ufc and the emergence of Ong Bak, most hand systems never practiced knee strikes, we are all so caught up in how good our hands are. as expected, we're hand systems. then they come into the picture.

Now, my question is..."is it too late?" ..Since this new fad of (No disrespect intended) Thai boxer wannabe's, focusing on knee and elbow strikes andbringing it to the commercial level, forcing all to adapt if they want to keep their students
from switching sides, is it too late. IS IT TOO LATE to start training to use our knee and elbow strikes without looking like we are riding the "Thai Boxer Train?"

I mean yes, the thai boxers are masters at using their knees and elbows. So could we, it we train to use them in similar fashions. but the key questions is how do we pull this off without looking like we stole it from them. Inspired maybe, but not stolen.

hsk.

[David Jamieson]

in both the northern and southern shaolin traditional styles i have learned and am still learning there are inclusive to the mix knee and elbow strikes a plenty.

as for wing chun, it has always been repleat with elbow strikes, they are evident mainly in chum kiu and biu ji. there is more emphasis on them in the last two forms than in the more foundational form of siu nim tao.

[bigdoing]

....In choy lee fut, ng lu ma (five wheel horse) is almost all elbows (ding ji ma with hands near waist or rib cage in a sow choy motion) and then when drop into lok qui ma (kneeling horse) its like the elbows do a kay sow (45 degree type sow body mechanic but again with elbow).....or when we do diu ma (cat stance) we drop the same arm as the leg on its toes, down with a smashing elbow....


hell ya weve got elbows.....

now knees......a few that i noticed, in some of the forms....wu dip (buttergly palms) with the knee shooting up........the opening of a lot of our primary forms, with the whole hand flower motion on one leg...again, knee shooting up......

hell ya, weve got them both....elbows a bit more.....from my observation...

[hskwarrior]

thanks for your input, and i know we got elbows, as matter of fact we got elbows all day for you.

but what im referring to now is if we start focusing on using our knees and elbows, we will look like the followers. in that video clip i saw more kick boxing and thai boxing than i did any wing chun.

and yes choy lee fut has many elbows and tricks from the elbows, coming from all angles. in our tiger claw form we do devestating elbow strikes. even in the fut san stuff we just picked up has some real nice elbows.

but as choy lee fut people we train our kwa sow chop more than we do our knees and elbows. and to do elbow strikes you need to be in pretty close. and i've seen too many people afraid to get in close. most are just too afraid to get hit.

Also, what im saying is in (for choy lee fut people) the ring, can we and how do we use elbow strikes and knee strikes and have someone watching and say "OOOOOH he he them with a choy lee fut elbow (or knee)? thats what im asking. how do we not look like kick boxing or thai boxing? is it possible or is it too late?

[Eddie]

In the end, fighting is fighting. Im not exactly sure of the question, but it does seem to me that you want to ‘justify’ your fighting style (Im talking in broad here, not referring to anyone here specifically) with some kind of trademark CLF style, or Form. While the essence of most styles does not only lie within the moves, that’s just what we see at surface level, the keys probably lies deeper ie, strategy, power generation, movement dynamics…, so much more.

I look at my Che Kuen, and I see fighting principles, not rigid moves. If I follow these principles as set out in my guidelines of moves (from my form) I should be fine, and possibly even look like a CLF fighter, but in the same breath, those are fighting principles and the physical may even resemble other forms of fighting, both Western and Eastern.

One can get into the ring, and stick to CLF form, but still look like a kickboxer. This reminds me of a post that was posted here last week or so:

Forgive me guys but I had to speak on this, when considering drunken boxing as a fighting style, consider the mentality of a drunk, this is what was taught by my teacher Lau Yee Chan of the Eight immortals system. Yes there are techniques unique to this school alone. The eight immortals style does not imitate one as if he was drunk in a fight much like Tai Shing Pek Kwar doesn't imitate monkey when they fight, nor does white crane imitate a bird when they fight, but the tactic are very deceptive and relentless. Last but not least because this system originated in Mo Dong(wu tang), consider its energy and sensitivity which is most important, explosive power, inch power, reeling power etc. Most find it hard to learn because to truly understand eight immortals style one must understand the relationship between intent, energy and spirit.

Troy Dunwood

Our school has had really good success with CLF in the ring, in both amateur and professional San Shou fights. In my opinion, CLF was designed for the ring (and the street of course, but lets stick to the argument), we just need to focus on the principles. There are allot of knees and elbows in the style too… I know this is probably a very weak argument, but Im going to post this picture anyways http://wushu-verlag.com/img/articles...oy_lay_fut.jpg

We should also not forget that although styles may seem to stay traditional, it doesn’t mean that it doesn’t still need to develop and evolve. It doesn’t take anything away from CLF.

[Eddie]

how do we not look like kick boxing or thai boxing? is it possible or is it too late?

one can still throw nice sow choys and been choys with 10ounce boxing gloves on in fact, you can still pretty much stick to your style with very little adaption. your body and stances may look like a kickboxier, but fighting isnt in the body only

[SevenStar]

I think the bigger question here is "why should you care?" I am a thai boxer. I throw elbows and knees all the time. But, since I've trained in traditional styles, I also use the side and hook kick a lot. I am not concerned whether or not they think I'm trying to "copy traditional guys" - I like those two techniques because they work well for me. I also recently started a capoeira class. Although it has knees, I use them A LOT in the roda. I don't care if they think I'm trying to make capoeira look like thai boxing. In the end, the main goal is making yourself more effective. to worry about what others think or your reasoning is to limit yourself. Look at the MMA guys of today - their philosophy is adaptation. Where would mma be today if they were concerned about how people felt about the direction they were taking their style?

[Mulong]

Actually, we aren’t riding the so-called bang wagon per say, because our styles do possess these elements, but sadly, with time these notions have been pushed way back into the foreground, that few remember that it exist.

For example, hongjiaquan, possess numerous elbow strikes, just like chaquan; however, you need an experience Shifu to highlight those techniques, which are can be perceived as secondary techniques extending from a strike, i.e., hand, palm, or fist.

[David Jamieson]

I would also add that use of techniques is generally dictated by the range you find yourself in.

Elbows and knees have more usefullness at very short or clinch range. When use as long range tech, they tend to be a wash.

[Ben Gash]

If you fight in a kickboxing format then you will at some level always look like a kickboxer, as it grew out of the format, rather than the format growing out of a style.
Interestingly (perhaps) I teach my San Shou group a very stripped down Bak Sing Fut Gar framework, and while at some levels they look like kickboxers, at others they look like Bak Sing fighters.
I've always used knees and elbows in CLF (I mean look at the cover of LKH's book! ) and the key is to practice your entry techniques. I can usually get close enough to my opponent to do it, because I've been bridging from my first Gwa Chui. I also get my students used to getting close to each other early, to try and condition the discomfort out of them.

[Chief Fox]

I'd say look inside your style's forms for applications that could be interpreted as knee or elbow stikes.

For example, when I'm doing a form, I always visulaize certain strikes. But while doing some of those same moves as two man drills, I always find something I didn't know was there. Like, "oh, this could be an elbow right here" or "hey, I could do it how it's done in the form or I could put an knee in right here".

So, I guess Im saying that those knee and elbow strikes are already there if you look for them.

I also agree with (not sure who said it). But if you fight in a kickboxing environment with kick boxing rules then what you're doing will look like kick boxing.

Hope this helps.

[SevenStar]

I'd say look inside your style's forms for applications that could be interpreted as knee or elbow stikes.

For example, when I'm doing a form, I always visulaize certain strikes. But while doing some of those same moves as two man drills, I always find something I didn't know was there. Like, "oh, this could be an elbow right here" or "hey, I could do it how it's done in the form or I could put an knee in right here".

So, I guess Im saying that those knee and elbow strikes are already there if you look for them.

I also agree with (not sure who said it). But if you fight in a kickboxing environment with kick boxing rules then what you're doing will look like kick boxing.

Hope this helps.

I actually think that is part of the problem. yohu LOOK for it in a form. The teacher should SHOW it to you and you should drill it. I know that the thought pattern there is different from a more traditional CMA attitude of you discovering all of these things on your own, but it also accelerates your learning and gets you more familiar with drilling the techniques. Modern arts take the same hit on that. thai arts have a hook kick and a side kick. Many people do not know this though, because not many people teach them, as they aren't as predominant in the ring.

[Chief Fox]

I actually think that is part of the problem. yohu LOOK for it in a form. The teacher should SHOW it to you and you should drill it. I know that the thought pattern there is different from a more traditional CMA attitude of you discovering all of these things on your own, but it also accelerates your learning and gets you more familiar with drilling the techniques. Modern arts take the same hit on that. thai arts have a hook kick and a side kick. Many people do not know this though, because not many people teach them, as they aren't as predominant in the ring.

Maybe I mis-spoke or mis-typed. While I do agree that being taught and drilling certain techniques are the best way to learn. What I was trying to say is, be aware of the possibility of other techniques while drilling.

For example: Technique "A" works great on opponent "1" but not so great on opponent "2". So technique "A" is modified into technique "B". Technique "B" was always there inside technique "A" but you had to look for and be aware to see it.

Does that make sense becaues now I'm confused.

I'm going to go home and workout.

[Slade]

hehe, probably talking about my old school, it was chuengs style wing chun plus we had san shou class taught by wing chun instructors and a champion MMA guy, cant remember his name. of course its not wing chun only cos we learnt BJJ in there as well as thai stuff and chinese wrestling..

[SevenStar]

Maybe I mis-spoke or mis-typed. While I do agree that being taught and drilling certain techniques are the best way to learn. What I was trying to say is, be aware of the possibility of other techniques while drilling.

For example: Technique "A" works great on opponent "1" but not so great on opponent "2". So technique "A" is modified into technique "B". Technique "B" was always there inside technique "A" but you had to look for and be aware to see it.

Does that make sense becaues now I'm confused.

I'm going to go home and workout.

dangit, now I'm confused. I think we are in agreeance on this. But, (at least when I trained CMA) even though it would be shown where knees and elbows could be placed, we didn't drill them anywhere near enough to be proficient with them. The same goes with throws. Based on that experience, I can understand why some people may think that these things don't exist in CMA.