Is It Too Late?

[Eddie]

but sevenstar, throws are big in chinese martial arts.
i'd go as far as to say, if you cant throw, cant fight. thats why i love san shou.
cool thing is, throws are very effective in street

[SevenStar]

I don't disagree that they are big in cma... in forms - at least in my experience. My main focus, and the focus of other CMA guys that I know, has primarily been striking, regardless of the style, other than shuai chiao. they were all about throwing. I know of a few longfist groups that do a lot of throwing, but not all of them do. A good, well known example is Dr. Yang Jwing Ming. how often do you see him throwing? his apps are generally striking related.

[Ben Gash]

I always teach lots of throws, as do my teachers. I've never been to JWM's school, so I don't know what they do there (what people show in books and what they do in classes aren't always the same). Indeed, as the majority of JWM's books are on Chin Na it's somewhat innaccurate to say that all they do is striking.
Many movements in forms, especially in longfist, don't make any sense except as throws, and if a school isn't teaching you how to apply every movement in the forms you should be asking questions (I can do about 3 hours just on applications of bows).

[Eddie]

you are right sevenstar. Im very good friends with the local YMAA down here, and I understand what you are saying.

i was watching a taiji pushhands demo the other night (on video), and one could have sworn it was a judo match.

[Infrazael]

Frank,

Since my mom has this phobia of driving long distances during the winter months, I'm stuck at home practicing Choy Lay Fut on my own. Now this is all fine and fun and I have no problems with it, I've decided what the hell, since I can't go to CLF class for a while why don't I take up something else, check it out, compare it to the CLF etc.

So I joined up at a local MMA school about 5 minutes away, it's a good school with a couple of pro fighters from UFC and Pride and stuff. Anyways ever since I started learning the boxing and Muay Thai, I've kept on comparing/contrasting it with the CLF, in terms of technique, footwork, movement etc.

Now the boxing I love, it's great, I consider it merely an addition to my CLF techniques. Their jab is awesome, their cross is different and works well, they train in a different uppercut which simply adds to my CLF arsenal. Now I'm not very fond of their overhand hooks because. . . . . Sau Choys are just simply better.

I also learned the Muay Thai kicks, they actually have 2 kinds, 1 for the legs and head, and another for the body. The leg and head kick you kinda bring your leg up, open your hips, and don't chamber the leg. You pivot in the balls of your supporting foot, and twist and lean back slightly. You bring the leg up, then chop it downwards like you have a dead leg, causing maximum momentum. It's rather like the Sau Choy, the primary deal is to cause as much whipping energy as much IMO, followed by muscular force, etc.

The kick to the body comes up, and again you don't chamber your leg. It cuts upwards at about a 45 degree angle, and this is the "fast" roundhouse that you see guys do to each other's ribs. IMO, these kicks are alot more powerful than snap kicks, but if you miss you end up spinning due to the massive rotational force generated by the kicks.

Then there's the knees/elbows. In actuality. . . . . . they're not much different than the CLF elbows. Muay Thai has just got more, and more variations. Some include back elbow, horizontal elbow, spear elbow, diagonal crushing elbow, rising elbow, and in Muay Boran you have spinning elbows and all that good stuff.

When you do them it doesn't "look MT" or "look CLF". . . . . it looks like elbow techniques. I think what differentiates us from them are the overall body mechanics, movements etc. We fight more like boxers, except with alot more emphasize on the bridging, attacking the limbs stuff etc. . . . I like it alot more, in boxing if you're getting overwhelmed you're taught to cover, weave, roll etc, while we just attack the attack.

In Muay Thai the punching is pretty pathetic. . . . . most Thai boxers train their legs and kicks alot more anyways, and elbows/knees and clinch. I think what we CLF guys can learn about "MT elbows" are merely the way they use them, they take those ideas and incorporate it into the CLF. MT is amazing clinching skills, and I have yet to see a round knee in CLF yet. Even our rising knees aren't perfected to their degree.

All in all, knees and elbows are for close range, and guess who else likes close range besides Muay Thai? Choy Lay Fut. . . . . . . . . . . .

Peace guys

PS -- Sau Choy pretty much owns every single boxing punch in terms of pure power.

[Infrazael]

A well know CMA master in Taiwan who knew nothing about Muay Thai had defeated 8 guys in a theatre office by using his "elbow striking" only. All of those 8 guys were sent to hospital after that fight (the whole thing were reported on newspaper in Taiwan).

Elbow and knee existed in CMA long before Muay Thai. The following clip show a CMA "Ju Chuan - elbow form":

http://johnswang.com/elbow_form.wmv

CMA guys used knee more than Muay Thai guys. Besides you can strike with your knee, you can also use your knee to throw - Kuai. Knee can also be used as counters for many throws (inner leg hooking, outer leg hooking, front cut, ...).

Sanshou is just an integration of CMA skill and we should not treat it as foreign MA by using:

- Boxing hands,
- Muay Thai kicks,
- Judo throws.

We need to have confidence in our CMA system. We got everything. It's up to us to train it well. Forms in CMA are used for "teaching" and "learning" only. It's up to individual to convert the information from forms into application drills and then apply in fighting.

I disagree. CMA does NOT use more elbows and knees than Muay Thai. If you watch Muay Thai fights in Thailand, craploads of them practically walk into each other's clinch and elbow/knee/underhook away. . . . . . I'ts kinda sad really, their punching is so crappy lol.

You can say every style has everything. . . . . but that's simply a delusional fantasy. It's not a "real-word thing" buddy. For example, I can say my CLF has EVERYTHING, and I mean EVERYTHING. Punches, bridges, elbows, knees, throws, sweeps, etc. . . . you can even go far enough to say "CLF works on the ground."

But you know what? This is all IN THEORY. In reality, our respective arts specialize in an area, and dominate in that area. My CLF forefathers concentrated in striking, and we continue to dominate the striking game today, with Sau Choys, Chop Choys, Gwa Choys, Kup Choys, Biu Jongs etc. Yet, as a result of such focus we lose other things, ie knees, elbows, clinch, etc. Our kicks are good, but the snap kick and the MT kick are still totally different.

It's like saying Muay Thai has better punches than CLF. That's simply ABSURD talk right there. . . . . in Thailand they don't even score punches *sighs*. Their punching is ungodly awful, it's indescribable. Yet, they specialize in other areas, roundhouses, knees, elbows and clinch. Their throws aren't very good either.

You're saying that CMA has the POTENTIAL for everything (except submissions ON the ground). Thats' all good ON PAPER and IN THEORY. We DO NOT dominate EVERY SINGLE range, format, or fighting style. . . . . to think so would be pure arrogance. Arrogance doesn't lead to evolution.

I've read your quote. . . . and no, I believe in my CLF 100%, even more than my boxing and Muay Thai. Yet I learn from these two systems to FURTHER my CLF, to strengthen what my CLF class and Sifu does not emphasize as much.

I think it's time to throw off the Ego shirt and learn something.

[Eddie]

in taijimeihua mantis theres a form called 8 Elbows. As I understand it, the 8 elbows include knee strikes and even head buts. Pretty much what we in CLF would call " ding".

The issue is not that there are everything in every style, it just is that there are everything you need, in every style. Chinese Martial arts are pretty complete.

[Eddie]

You don't need to learn any foreign MA to be a good Sanshou fighter. Nobody said that one CMA style will be enough.

I won't call it "ego" but "faith".

I agree. I look at CLF, Xiao Bei, and Taijimeihua tanglang, and all these styles pretty much cover all you need to be a good san shou fighter. the difference in them all are just different strategy and different ways to generate force etc. Supplementing your style isnt a bad thing, as long as you are mature enough to understand the differences in the styles you are supplementing from.

people often look at Asian styles and comment on the boxing skill, but its only cause we have a different approach in the western MA to boxing. If two asian guys are fighting, its all fine, there wont be much of a difference, but the problem comes when people from different back grounds clash.

Learning good boxing skill is always good

[Infrazael]

Yes, but it's always San Shou this, San Shou that. . . . . . San Shou isn't the only form of comptetion, you know.

In San Shou the clinch rules are DRASTICALLY different, as are the elbow/knee rules from Muay Thai and MMA. If you only rely on San Shou fights, then if you fight MT rules you're gonna get eaten in the clinch, if you fight under MMA rules you're gonna get killed on the ground.

I'm not saying CMA or San Shou sucks, that's just the way it is. Just like how a MMA guy, and a Thai Boxer will get eaten if they fight under San Shou rules.

So why limit yourself to one ruleset? Go out and spar Thai boxers and boxers, go fight wrestlers and grapplers. If you never do you'll never have the experience of facing one, and thus be a one-dimensional fighter (this is also true for say, Thai boxers who refuse to train San Shou or something else).

[SevenStar]

So I joined up at a local MMA school about 5 minutes away, it's a good school with a couple of pro fighters from UFC and Pride and stuff. Anyways ever since I started learning the boxing and Muay Thai, I've kept on comparing/contrasting it with the CLF, in terms of technique, footwork, movement etc.

Enjoy it!!! Keep us updated.

Now the boxing I love, it's great, I consider it merely an addition to my CLF techniques. Their jab is awesome, their cross is different and works well, they train in a different uppercut which simply adds to my CLF arsenal. Now I'm not very fond of their overhand hooks because. . . . . Sau Choys are just simply better.

nah, the purpose is just different. isn't a sau choy a forearm strike? (I'm not a clf guy) The over hand is meant to exploit a hole in your opponent's guard. A forearm strike could not do this.

I also learned the Muay Thai kicks, they actually have 2 kinds, 1 for the legs and head, and another for the body. The leg and head kick you kinda bring your leg up, open your hips, and don't chamber the leg. You pivot in the balls of your supporting foot, and twist and lean back slightly. You bring the leg up, then chop it downwards like you have a dead leg, causing maximum momentum. It's rather like the Sau Choy, the primary deal is to cause as much whipping energy as much IMO, followed by muscular force, etc.

The kick to the body comes up, and again you don't chamber your leg. It cuts upwards at about a 45 degree angle, and this is the "fast" roundhouse that you see guys do to each other's ribs. IMO, these kicks are alot more powerful than snap kicks, but if you miss you end up spinning due to the massive rotational force generated by the kicks.

There are more kicks than this. This is merely two versions of the roundhouse. Another version is the switch kick. In addition, there is the teep, back kick and several other kicks, however, you will likely only learn the roundhouse, teep and back kicks.

Then there's the knees/elbows. In actuality. . . . . . they're not much different than the CLF elbows. Muay Thai has just got more, and more variations. Some include back elbow, horizontal elbow, spear elbow, diagonal crushing elbow, rising elbow, and in Muay Boran you have spinning elbows and all that good stuff.

Yes, there are LOTS of variations.

When you do them it doesn't "look MT" or "look CLF". . . . . it looks like elbow techniques. I think what differentiates us from them are the overall body mechanics, movements etc. We fight more like boxers, except with alot more emphasize on the bridging, attacking the limbs stuff etc. . . . I like it alot more, in boxing if you're getting overwhelmed you're taught to cover, weave, roll etc, while we just attack the attack.

attacking the attack is not good when there are so many punches coming at you. If boxers did that, you would see A LOT more 1st and 2nd round KOs. Besides, their aim is to KO the guy - they are better served by trying to achieve that purpose and not attaking the limbs. boxers don't bridge, I'm guessing because of the speed. It would be nearly impossible to connect and stick with a jab - they are too fast.

In Muay Thai the punching is pretty pathetic. . . . . most Thai boxers train their legs and kicks alot more anyways, and elbows/knees and clinch. I think what we CLF guys can learn about "MT elbows" are merely the way they use them, they take those ideas and incorporate it into the CLF. MT is amazing clinching skills, and I have yet to see a round knee in CLF yet. Even our rising knees aren't perfected to their degree.

punching is definitely not their strength. The reasoning behind that is that all of the other techniques are much more devastating. Consequently, they would rather use those.

PS -- Sau Choy pretty much owns every single boxing punch in terms of pure power.

I would put money on that not being true. the haymaker is a very powerful punch and also utilizes a wide arc. Also, the forearm will be easier to block. The fist is more likely to slip through their guard.

[SevenStar]

Elbow and knee existed in CMA long before Muay Thai. The following clip show a CMA "Ju Chuan - elbow form":

http://johnswang.com/elbow_form.wmv

CMA guys used knee more than Muay Thai guys. Besides you can strike with your knee, you can also use your knee to throw - Kuai. Knee can also be used as counters for many throws (inner leg hooking, outer leg hooking, front cut, ...).

While this is true, you guys do not have it perfected to the degree that we do. On the same token, MT has takedowns but they are not developed anywhere near the degree that shuai chiao guys are.

[Infrazael]

Sevenstar -- I fully understand the implications of the Overhand exploiting an opening in your opponents guard.

However the Sau Choy is meant to break the break the guard, or go over it. If they want to block it, let them by all means. . . . . the nature is to break past the guard, and if that doesn't work, you slip another technique through at a different angle.

As for your talk of Haymakers, Sau Choys are essentially those, except striking with the inner forearm and the whip energy is far more efficient and powerful than using purely muscular forces, ie a Haymaker. Plus, if I'm thinking what your definition of Haymaker is (ie, big, unbalanced crazy swing), then it doesn't even come close because you have no root, balance, and you're completely opening yourself up with a wild Haymaker (think, streetfighters, untrained fighters etc).

Plus, with 16 oz. gloves it's kinda hard to slip an overhand punch through anything, and the Sau Choy generates more power anyways because of the whip.

[SevenStar]

However the Sau Choy is meant to break the break the guard, or go over it. If they want to block it, let them by all means. . . . . the nature is to break past the guard, and if that doesn't work, you slip another technique through at a different angle.

unless it's coming at a downward angle, it's not gonna break anything though - unless you are refering to the possibility of the strike deadening their arm or something. Either way, if you subscribe the the practice of not chasing limbs, then there isn't a huge need for slamming my forearm into their arms.

As for your talk of Haymakers, Sau Choys are essentially those, except striking with the inner forearm and the whip energy is far more efficient and powerful than using purely muscular forces, ie a Haymaker. Plus, if I'm thinking what your definition of Haymaker is (ie, big, unbalanced crazy swing), then it doesn't even come close because you have no root, balance, and you're completely opening yourself up with a wild Haymaker (think, streetfighters, untrained fighters etc).

you can't possibly think that the hook and haymaker are all muscle... that would make them merely arm punches, which is a big no no in any style. You're thinking of the same punch, but with the wrong association. "street fighters" use them alot and have no balance when they throw them - and even then, they are very powerful. A proper haymaker has the same mechanics as it's sister punch, the hook.

Plus, with 16 oz. gloves it's kinda hard to slip an overhand punch through anything, and the Sau Choy generates more power anyways because of the whip.

1. not really - people tire and Guards drop. People have too much space between their hands and cheek while punching, leaving them open for counter. See where I'm going? There is a time and place for it.

2. as stated above there IS a whipping action.

3. in fighting, you wear 10 - 12oz gloves. 16 oz are only training gloves.

[Infrazael]

Cool Sevenstar, thanks for the mature replies here, I think we can both get some new knowledge.

unless it's coming at a downward angle, it's not gonna break anything though - unless you are refering to the possibility of the strike deadening their arm or something. Either way, if you subscribe the the practice of not chasing limbs, then there isn't a huge need for slamming my forearm into their arms.

I usually don't hit the arms. Sau Choy whips up, then down and comes into their head, collarbone, shoulders, and neck. For bridging/blocking/knocking ther hands away we have other techniques.

As for you saying Sau Choy coming down. . . . . that's how you throw it. It always comes down, it's never a horizontal punch. Think of it in 3 movements:

1. You load your arm
2. You whip it up
3. You crash it down like a hammer

But I think I understand what you're sayin about the overhand hook, I will definitely try it more now you've made it clearer. About your Haymaker speech. . . . . I actually think the Sau Choy IS pretty much a haymaker, except we're banging with our forearms instead of hands, and it's VERY controlled in terms of positioning, but not in speed (impossible to slow down).

you can't possibly think that the hook and haymaker are all muscle... that would make them merely arm punches, which is a big no no in any style. You're thinking of the same punch, but with the wrong association. "street fighters" use them alot and have no balance when they throw them - and even then, they are very powerful. A proper haymaker has the same mechanics as it's sister punch, the hook.

I wasn't talking about a trained boxer throwing it, sorry about that. I was talking about pure "streetfighters" ie untrained fighters throwing really big hook thingys at you. . . . slowly, and with all muscles.

But that's why we use the term "haymaker" right? If it was controlled, we'd call it by the proper boxing lingo, THE OVERHAND HOOK.

Peace

[Eddie]

In San Shou the clinch rules are DRASTICALLY different, as are the elbow/knee rules from Muay Thai and MMA. If you only rely on San Shou fights, then if you fight MT rules you're gonna get eaten in the clinch, if you fight under MMA rules you're gonna get killed on the ground.

nope, not true. fighting is fighting, if you are a good martial artists, you should have some knoweldge of close range and clinch too. People make a way to big a deal about the clinch sometimes. although under muay thai rules you are not allowed to execute hip throws, there are still sweeps and other type of take downs. The two arts arent all that different, and most real fighters I know are just as skilled on a san shou platform as they are in the muay thai ring. Besides, as we have all been saying all along, if you are training kung fu, you should know how to use your knees and your elbows.

I love the beauty of muay thai, the richness etc, and I love the directness of san shou.
BTW- most of our san shou fighters compete in Muay Thai and Thai Boxing (no elbows) tournaments with great success. Our local san shou scene isnt that big, but most of the fighters compete in all these events.