Is It Too Late?

[Eddie]

for a tournament you can still do a sow choy, just turn your fist inside, and hit with the glove area. dinamics are all the same.

[Infrazael]

Eddie, thanks for the mature reply. I agree that a good fighter should know how to play under various circumstances. . . . . . but look at it this way:

I'm talking about the general effectiveness and evolution of a particular speciality within specific styles. IE -- in Muay Thai the clinch is developed to a higher, more complex extent than say, Boxing, Wing Chun, Hung Gar and CLF. Whereas in Hung Gar the bridge is developed to the extremity, and CLF whipping Jing and the ability to fire combos from virtually all directions.

I agree, being a CLF fighter I am ok in the clinch, I know to some extent how to fight in it and execute a throw (actually, not really), but our training methods and focuses are different than Muay Thai's, therefore we don't train as much in it!!! You see my point? IE, a boxer isn't gonna be able to throw proper Chop Choys and Sau Choys just cuz he can punch, he's never trained in them. Just as our elbows/knees, while good, solid and powerful, lack the variations, methods and "tricks" that MT boxers have developed throught EXTREME USE of them.

Whereas, as CLF fighters we have perfected the game of longfist at a point-blank range. . . . . . I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

[Ben Gash]

As for you saying Sau Choy coming down. . . . . that's how you throw it. It always comes down, it's never a horizontal punch.

Not true, it can be horizontal, diagonally down or diagonally up, depending on the type. Remember, sow choy just means swinging fist, it's what comes before that specifies how it's delivered.

[Infrazael]

Yes, but you can say that's the way I fight. It's just my personal interpretation. . . . . you can use a horizontal as well, I just don't know why.

Plus I use to throw hundres of Saus a day to practice them, and I always do it diagonal so it's basically ingrained into my memory now.

[Fu-Pow]

Not true, it can be horizontal, diagonally down or diagonally up, depending on the type. Remember, sow choy just means swinging fist, it's what comes before that specifies how it's delivered.

However, in the LKH curriculum the Sao Chui is pretty much always practiced hitting downward at 45 degrees. Infrazreal trains in that lineage of CLF, hence, his observation. But, for sure, Sau Chui can be thrown horizonal or even up. I know of one application from Mak Sifu with a horizontal sau chui. Also, a 45 degree Sau Chui can be used as a block if you need to do so.

[Fu-Pow]

I'm talking about the general effectiveness and evolution of a particular speciality within specific styles.

Absolutely, there IS specialty. Strategy, body mechanics, form, intent of any art evolved because of certain history. All martial arts are evolving to meet the needs of the practioner, whether they are becoming more specialized or more generalized to meet new needs. Martial arts are as much a PROCESS as they are anything else.

[Infrazael]

Absolutely sihing . . . . . just wanted to clarify that's what I'm saying. Look at the context of sports MA for example. . . . let's use boxing as an example. Just take a look a the boxing guard, and it's evolution. Take a look at ancient Greek/Roman boxing, Thai boxing, Irish, etc. . . . . then take a look at classic fighters such as Joe Lewis and later Ali, then Tyson etc. . . . . .

You can see the progress evolution of the boxing guard. Much of this has to do with the rules, the gloves, what you can do and can't to an opponent. I believe this format applies to virtually every MA. . . . they need a "paradigm shift" in order to adapt and survive. Look at the CLF hands; it was developed for fighting multiple opponents in warfare, and needs to be learned in a short amount of time. Hence the simplicity, fluidity, and the huge range it covers and it's "chain-attacks."

Then take a look at Hung Gar, it was meant to be used on boats and soft earth, to be a close-quarters system that's very tight, yet powerful. I've read in Wing Lam's books that the original forms are actually like Wing Chun's, you can perform them on a square table without even moving!!!

So think about it; 200 years ago, a HG guy and a CLF guy both goes to war (open war, that is). CLF guy is trained to tackle multiple opponents, cover a wide range, and hit lots of things, and chain his attacks and attack multiple angles. HG guy is trained to fight in a very tight and conformed space, fight with an iron root, and move in hard, forceful movements. . . . .

Who do you think will do better on the battlefield?

Let's take a look at another scenario . . . . . . a fight on a boat, the water is moving, etc. While CLF might be able to do fine, here's where the HG really shines now, having an iron, hard stance, and not relying on any space whatsoever.

Of course, over time, and now in 2005 our respective systems have all evolved, and I think a Hung Gar and CLF guy can be equal in all aspects provided you train and learn properly, and have a small Ego and be able to learn from your own style's weaknesses.

Look at the development of Muay Thai; desire for globization led them to "water-down" the rules, make them slightly safer. Headbutts were banned, groin shots were banned, and more western boxing hands were adapted. If you see the current MT fights they are pretty **** different form the OLD SCHOOL ones, where they pretty much fought NO RULES, like the oldschool Chinese San Da/Gong Sau rules. . . . . . . .

Look at San Shou. Exclusion of massive elbows/knees and clinch has allowed us to do what? Focus on the throw, perfect the throw, and be better at the throw than other styles, even Judo possibly (since San Shou does no Gi throws).

So yeah. . . . . . my point.

[Eddie]

I see your point, the only thing is, people often asume that some fighters arent skilled in certain ranges, because of the style they fight. These days with all the information around, experienced fighters prepare all ranges. Lets not forget, we are talking sports martial arts here, unless you were talking more loosely. Down here in SA, the pro san shou events often allow knees too. As we already established, elbows arent that uncommon in Chinese arts, even our LKH style has elbows in just about every form (tit jin comes to mind).

There are many kung fu guys who supplement their kung fu with thaiboxing. In LKH branch, one of the Hong Kong Teachers who used to teach down here in SA, master Yuen Hong Chow, was very skilled in Muay Thai.

My point is, as martial artists, we should not be bothered about " style" as much as we should be bothered about strategy. As posted before, I divorced the two concepts in my head.

Perhaps that is what Bruce Lee was on about when he spoke about no form etc? (not that Im a bruce Lee Fan, but anyways)

[Infrazael]

Now I agree with what you are saying Eddie. . . .

That's why I like to think, and like people that think outside the box. It's like understanding forms, your interpretation of them, and what you get out of them.

I also like your idea of being worried about strategy rather than style/system, because when we think strategy and application, we think in practical, everyday terms rather than some hypothetical, theoritical formula that only works on paper.

To be, studing MMA and such isn't about "cross-training" in styles/systems as most people do, but rather to expand my CLF to other areas, and building upon aspects of CLF that aren't as specialized as CLF's other areas.

Of course we have elbows, look at Tuet Jin, etc. . . . . . . CLF has great potential for ALOT of stuff, we just have to train in that stuff. That part of training includes looking at other people, styles, strategies to find out the MOST practical, effective, efficient formula of executing these maneuvers.

Peace

[Fu-Pow]

My point is, as martial artists, we should not be bothered about " style" as much as we should be bothered about strategy. As posted before, I divorced the two concepts in my head.

Perhaps that is what Bruce Lee was on about when he spoke about no form etc? (not that Im a bruce Lee Fan, but anyways)

I think that what we (as in martial arts students and teachers) are concerned about is not that a student will round out his knowledge or skills but that the student will basicallly be able to do a lot of things (ie ranges, techniques, strategies) in very mediocre way.

Its OK to be well-rounded but when you take on too much and start cherry picking and choosing aspects (ranges, strategies, techniques) of styles that don't integrate well together....well then you got a martial artist that is one big mess going in 20 different directions.

What I'm saying is that, I think its OK to build on to a skill set that you already have mastery of. But jumping around from art to art, or range to range is not gonna make a better fighter....and perhaps even more importantly you are not going to have a very good idea of what the PROCESS is to gain mastery over anything.

And what kung fu is ultimately about, is not the PRODUCT (ie the skillset, form, or whatever), or how many trophies you have or whatever. That's just an external, although still important, measure of your progress.

Ultimately it is about what you gain through the PROCESS of hard work (gung) and effort (fu) that you put into mastering something. Because that will lead to mastery of "the self." You can apply that to whatever you do in life....whether you do knitting or brazilian jujitsu.

Have a good weekend.

[Eddie]

well said fu pow. you dont need to mix your martial arts, you should find all the tools within your style, the thing is just, you need to prepare for that. For eg, as infrazael said, some people arent to skilled in the clinch. Now preparing yourself to ' survive' the clinch, doesnt mean you have to go and learn study thaiboxing and change your style, it simply means you need to go prepare for that situation. for eg, I would get my partner and let him get me into a hold, and then try what ever tools I have to my disposal to get out of the clinch. My CLF strategy would be to charng fu his a.ss , and it usually works, but you can choose from your arsenal of techniques, as long as you stick to the rules and principles (from both the style as well as the rules of the tournament).

the more I look at CLF, no more i realise it is a no nonsense, no frills, very dynamic art.

[Infrazael]

well said fu pow. you dont need to mix your martial arts, you should find all the tools within your style, the thing is just, you need to prepare for that. For eg, as infrazael said, some people arent to skilled in the clinch. Now preparing yourself to ' survive' the clinch, doesnt mean you have to go and learn study thaiboxing and change your style, it simply means you need to go prepare for that situation. for eg, I would get my partner and let him get me into a hold, and then try what ever tools I have to my disposal to get out of the clinch. My CLF strategy would be to charng fu his a.ss , and it usually works, but you can choose from your arsenal of techniques, as long as you stick to the rules and principles (from both the style as well as the rules of the tournament).

the more I look at CLF, no more i realise it is a no nonsense, no frills, very dynamic art.

Well CLF pretty much kicks ass.

Notice how we usually hijack every thread and turn it into a discussion about how much CLF rocks?

[Shaolindynasty]

"Well CLF pretty much kicks ass."


It's about time somebody had the balls to tell the truth around here

[Fu-Pow]

Well CLF pretty much kicks ass.

Notice how we usually hijack every thread and turn it into a discussion about how much CLF rocks?

Haha....

[SevenStar]

To be, studing MMA and such isn't about "cross-training" in styles/systems as most people do, but rather to expand my CLF to other areas, and building upon aspects of CLF that aren't as specialized as CLF's other areas.

I think that many people today misconstrue the term MMA. It doesn't mean simply "train in everything so that you can have the longrang strikes fo CLF, the powerful kicks of muay thai, the throwing of a judoka, the ground maneuverability of a wrestler, etc." MMA is about training a stand up style and a gorund style. Period. For example, if you train CLF and judo, you are an MMA.