Luoyang is true source of Henan Internal MAs?

[Sal Canzonieri]

After reading the Wile books on taiji classics, Chang Naizou book and Wells book on Chang, the main things I come away with are:

- that scholarly approach to understanding the internal martial arts is a rationalized elucidation of what amounts to natural physical laws that even a million pages of explanation would not make one bit of difference if the practitioner is not using proper body mechanics. These correct body mechanics exist and work efficiently and effectively regardless of if the practitioner is an illiterate (Yang Luchan for example) or a scholar (Chang Naizou), since they are naturally there as a result of the way the human body has evolved to work.

- Chen linage created an amalagram of various Shanxi and Henan (and other? Shandong?) martial arts and later when Chang developed his theories and observations, they usurbed Chang's material cause it could be retrofit to describe the Chen arts (mostly because it could be used to describe any martial arts functional process) AND some people took advantage of the fact that by the time Yang Luchan's martial art (whatever that really was) got a name for itself, Chang's art had by then become rather obscure (even though during most of the 1700s Chang was the talk of Henan province and the main hero that others were measured by).

My commentary to the books is:

Most of Chinese history has been about wars and book burnings. Because of this many things (especially various Martial Arts and the theories associated with these MAs) died out and came back from people discovering some long lost thing and then reinventing "the wheel" from it.

On page 42 of Wells book, he states that Chang's ideas were all "things no one else had discovered". But is that really correct? Especially in Henan province?
Wells himself mentions that Chang's himself "informs us that he took lessons from Yan Shengdao of Luoyang".

People today are mostly doing end of the line analysis of the origins of internal martial arts, and they thus spend most of their time reviewing Ching Dynasty data. But I think that is only giving half of the picture. If front end analysis is done on pre-Ching era data, many things point to Luoyang as having a strong presence on the internal martial arts presence in Henan province.

If Chang's "absorbed all that Yan Shengdao" had to offer, then where did Yan get the base of methods that Chang was able to build his corpus of writings on Internal MA theory? If we look to Luoyang area, there is much that connects the internal arts to there, and shows that some "reinventing the wheel" was later done.

Shaolin for instance, very nearby Luoyang; many times Wells points out in his book that before Chang's time it's martial arts were soft and hard (page 7, 8, etc).
Shaolin itself was shut down more than once and it's monks and live in martial artists were often dispersed all over. It's Lohan MA clearly used soft and hard MA ideas (based on incorporating external "Shuai Jiao like" takedowns and local boxing fist methods with the famous Buddhist/Taoist internal Muscle/ Tendon Changing and Brain/Marrow Cleansing Chi Gungs) and by the early Sung Dynasty it was incorporated into Sung Tai Tzu's (who was from Luoyang) martial arts, which also was characterized for being composed of soft and hard movements and theories. During the Sung dynasty, Tai Tzu Chang Quan and Tai Tzu Hong Quan spread all over Shanxi, Henan, Shandong, Hebei, and other provinces, becoming the basis for local folk long fist forms and styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

By the end of the Sung dynasty, due to war, etc., Shaolin had again died off and it's people's dispersed. Martial Artist Jue Yuan is said to have entered Shaolin - during the Jin Dynasty between the latter part of Northern Song Dynasty and the beginning of the Yuan Dynasty (Between 1224 - 1231), found it's martial arts quality wanting and, after much travel, brought in internal martial arts/ Qi Gung/ Narrow blade sword expert Bai Yu Feng and Li Shu to re-examine Shaolin's remaining Lohan forms and return the soft and hard method to these forms.

It is well documented that during the Northern Song, hundreds of martial sets were developed both for combat and for entertainment. For at least a hundred years before Jue Yuan and Bai Yufeng's time, sophisticated martial arts was already common. Single sets and sparring sets; barehanded and weapons sets; were commonly practiced by both the military and civilians alike.

It is said that Jue had gone to the White Horse Temple in Luoyang to learn from Bai's teacher, Ma Zi Long, who was able to teach him the original soft and hard art that was by then long lost to Shaolin.

"White Horse Temple," said to have been the first Buddhist temple built in China. According to tradition, Emperor Ming of the Later Han dynasty built this temple in C.E. 69 at Luo-yang for Kashyapa Matanga and Dharmaraksha, two Afgan Buddhist monks who had come from India at his invitation to teach Buddhism. In this temple, it is said, they accomplished the first Chinese translation of a Buddhist scripture-the Sutra of Forty-two Sections. The temple was named Baimasi, or White Horse Temple, because the two Indian monks were said to have brought Buddhist scriptures from India on the backs of white horses.

(there is a play on names going on that shows the connection to internal MA ideas. Jue Yuan is the inside out version of Damo's other nickname Yuan Jue (given to him in 772 AD, from the Tang Dynasty. It is recorded as saying that 300 years after Damo's death the Emperor of the time, gave Damo the new name/title, "Yuan Jue", at the request of Premier Guo Zi Yi. Though it has never been proven that Damo had anything to do with martial arts, the Shaolin Chi Gungs are attributed to him as is the Lohan Quan - it wasn't til about 1644 that Damo was started to be seen as the founder of the Lohan style at Shaolin in literature.).

According to what I have read in posts here:
Jue came from Shanxi Province. He studied marital arts at Huashan (Xi Yue) - an art called Bai Ma Quan (White Horse). When Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yu Feng) took the position of librarian at Shaolin Monastery he found the records on older methods like Hua Quan and revived them, reestablishing an older Shaolin system called Hua Quan at Shaolin. Hua Quan also incorporated wuxing (five elements) and bagua (eight tetragram) stepping patterns. Bai Yu Feng also reviewed existing Shaolin techniques with Jue Yuan and created a new system using: wuxing, five fist shapes, eight tetragrams and ten animals.

By the 1200's, the Jurchens (Jin) ruled over the northern parts which included the area where Shaolin stood. It was approximately the time that the alleged activities of Jue Yuan and Bai Yu Feng and when the historically accurate activities of Abbot Fuyu took place � as well as when the Mongols pushed the Jin out of the region. These Mongol invasion created great havoc not only in the population at large but in the monastic world as well. This was a devastating time when a large number of monasteries in the north were either destroyed or abandoned. Roving bandits became even more of an endemic problem in Henan.

By the 1500s Shaolin again went through a dormant and then blossoming period during the 1600s, which again was shut down by the Ching Emperor Yongzheng (Welles book page 17), who reigned from 1723 to 1735.
During the 1600s, the movements of the Chen village martial arts were developed, and can be found inside the Sung dynasty era SHAOLIN Tai Tzu Chang Quan and Tai Tzu Hong Quan forms that were still being done around Henan province at that time. Even the Yang martial art movements that are not seen in Chen TJQ are found inside these Tai Tzu Quan forms. Yang had learned the Shaolin Hong Quan forms when he was young, it is said.

Which takes us to another famous internal arts style, using 10 animals, from Luoyang and again the Ma family, namely Xin Yi Liu He Quan! Jarek on his site states that there is no real proof that Ji Long Feng really taught anyone of Luoyang. Nor a Cao Jiwu connection really either. So, where did Ma Xueli (about 1714-1790) of Luoyang, who taught a large set of single movements, get his martial art from?

Interesting that Xin Yi is said to be based on Yue Fei's martial art: earliest references to Yueh Fei in boxing lore is in the now proven false forged document "Preface to Six Harmonies Boxing" (Liuhequan Xu) written in 1750. According to this treatise, the style was created by Yue Fei who "as a child learnt from a master of deep knowledge and became very skillful at spear play; (on this basis) he created a boxing method to teach his officers and called it "Intention Boxing" (Yi Quan); (the martial art was) marvelous and ingenious, unlike any other before. After the King (e.g. Yue Fei) (passed away), the art was rarely seen during the Jin, Yuan and Ming dynasties."

Welles book on page 45 says that Chang Naizhou's teacher Yan Shengdao, from Luoyang area, was circa 1750 and on page 43 states that after Chang's death an ode written by Henan Governor Xu Pangui states that Chang had "His Fists took as master Yue Wumu (Yue Fei) root and source correct". Did Yan, Chang's teacher, a contemporary of Ma Xueli, and his "home boy", have something to do with Ma's art, with Yue Fei martial art?

[Sal Canzonieri]

The punchline at the end of Wells book on Chang:

Some of the main forms practiced and written about by Chang Naizhou:


Xiao Lohan
Da Lohan
Xiao Hong Quan
Pao Quan

Interesting coincidence?
Were these also taken by Chen martial arts?
Are these the source of Chen martial arts like Chang's writtings were used as the rationale?

Did later generations lose, destroy, hide, or omit information that show these forms to be a main source for the Chen Long Form, Lao Jia, Pao Quan, etc., (besides what the Chen founders brought there from their Shanxi ancestoral home and what they picked up locally in their proximity to various Henan martial arts (Shaolin, etc.)?


People have played telephone for so long with forms that in my opinion it is important to trace where forms and their moves come from to see how they were original and actually trained and performed.

Chang made a big deal about the Six Harmonies and other points made by XYLHQ.
Perhaps he got them from his teacher Yan (where else?), who get them from the Ma family or others from Luoyang.

I think that barely enough research has been done about Luoyang martial arts and Ma family there.

Some text from another source on Chang boxing:

"Continuing his study of the martial arts Chang worked with a number of teachers. Some of these are:
Huan Hou spearplay (Yi De Da Chiang) and boxing from Yu Rang.

Stick fighting from Liang Dao.

Luohan Boxing and Nei Gong from Yan Sheng Dao.

He also learned Fan Zi Boxing and Monkey Stick."

This old book, recently reprinted by Lion Books, discusses Yue Fei Jia Quan connection to Tai Ji origins.



LionBooks #LBTC- C016
Tai Chi Chuan Pu Li Dong Bian Wei He Bian
by Xu Zhen
70+ pages, softbound,US $9.95
Published April, 1937 in Shanghai. This book discusses the Primal Chaos theory and distinguishing the priniciples of Tai Chi.
Topics survey some unusual ideas such as Yueh Fei's and Jian Fa's contributions: Wang Tsung Yueh's writings, Wu Yu Hsiang writings, Li Yu Yi's own writings and more.

The author is credited with doing initial historical work on Tai Chi that lead to the idea that the Yang Family Tai Chi currently practiced mixes Chen family Pao Chui with softened imput from Jiang Fa. Text Only.

[GeneChing]

Interesting theory, Sal, as always. Luoyang is a very rich area in terms of historic culture. I've only visited the grottoes, but I imagine there are still some indigneous arts practiced there by folk masters. I know of one school, a large academy ala Dengfeng city; it's run by a former monk, so it's post CR Songshan Shaolin style, I imagine. I had this notion of visiting it once, just because it's so far off the beaten track, but I suspect it's more of the same. One thing is clear - Henan is the very heart of China, not just geographically, but culturally and therefore, martially. Luoyang would be very interesting to open up but I've only done the tourist thing there - never spent more than a day and it was only sightseeing. The Luoyang grottoes are spectacular and one of the great treasures of the world.

I'm a bit indifferent to your comment:

People have played telephone for so long with forms that in my opinion it is important to trace where forms and their moves come from to see how they were original and actually trained and performed.

Personally, I don't worry too much about the telephone game (or as I like to put it 'Chinese whispers'). It's inevitable in any transmission, except perhaps the Mahabharata, but that's truly exceptional. There's no way to really get at what the original might be since I can't imagine that any written record could adequately convey it. Besides, I'm not a purist for forms. The form might be the ideal for the Song dynasty warrior, but that's not me, not be a long shot. Now that doesn't mean I disagree with your research - quite the contrary - I think the key in doing historical research in forms transmission is to see the links, to see the family tree. Then you can do cross-research into other contemporary styles and see if there's any juicy tidbits you can absorb. It's akin to the evolution/intelligent design debate - if I'm a monkey's cousin or the clay of god or both, it doesn't matter too much. I don't really care what kind of man Adam might have been. I am what I am. I can learn from the monkey and god. I don't beleive that the original was inherently better than what has been produced from Chinese whispers. It may be more pure, but again, I'm not a purist. In my position, I can't afford to be one.

Anyway, great post! Eager to hear more.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Well, yeah, I think the research has to benefit, besides just plain old solving historical mysteries, of showing one's cousin styles.

So, for example, a Northern Mantis can look at Tai Tzu Quan forms for insight.
A XY person can look at Fan Tzi,
a Shaolin person can look at Shuai Jiao etc.

I've been looking into the Chang Naizhou forms themselves, and hmmmm, they are pretty much Lohan moves. Some people have said, why are Chang style forms external and the text he wrote is so internal?
Well, they don't think to see that Lohan IS internal, from its inception.
I am going to look at move by move the Chang style Da Lohan form soon and see
if it matches some Lohan traditional forms done at Shaolin (from whatever decade).

[GeneChing]

...at a certain level, the internal/external distinction breaks down. After all, you can't have yin without yang or vice versa, unless you believe in qi projection. Qi projection could be considered solely internal. I can't imagine what something completely external might be - I mean you can surely point your finger at MMA as being 'just external' but if something has no internal - no qi - it's dead. Hmmm, there's a really funny argument there, but I don't feel like fleshing it out right now.

[GeneChing]

Centuries-old alcohol discovered in China
Lilit Marcus, CNN • Published 7th November 2018

(CNN) — Bottoms up!
Chinese archaeologists have uncovered a 2,000-year-old bronze pot that contains an alcoholic liquid believed to be wine.
The discovery occurred on November 6 in China's Henan province, west of Shanghai.
Shi Jiazhen, who is head of the Institute of Cultural Relics and Archaeology in the province's city of Luoyang, tells China's Xinhua news agency that "there are 3.5 liters of the liquid in the color of transparent yellow. It smells like wine."
The maybe-wine was found as part of an excavation of a Western Han Dynasty-era tomb, along with artifacts made from clay and bronze.
Wine has long played in a role in other important archeological digs.
Shards of pottery dating from the Neolithic era (6000-5800 BCE) marked with remnants of grapes were unearthed in the country of Georgia in 2017. They contain some hints about the origin of winemaking there, nearly a full millennium ahead of when historians had previously believed the practice began.
The pottery had traces of tartaric acid, which is what gives wine its tartness.
Meanwhile, the island nation of Cyprus also holds claim to another historical wine accomplishment: Its Commanderia dessert wine is believed to be the oldest named wine in the world.
Other than the as-yet-unnamed liquid, the other major discovery in the Henan province archeological dig this week was a large bronze lamp in the shape of a goose.
Luoyang is rich with historical significance. Its location at the confluence of the Yellow and Luo rivers makes it an important center for trading. It has been the capital of many dynasties, including the Western Jin, Northern Wei and Later Tang.
The city is home to the Shaolin Temple (sometimes referred to as the Shaolin Monastery), which is famed for its connection to kung fu, and the Longmen Grottoes Buddhist rock carvings, both of which are UNESCO World Heritage sites.

THREADS
my kung fu booze
Luoyang