CLF's bread & butter techniques

[Gowgee]

Hi,

I'm an interested observer of CLF, and since the WC guys are talking about bread and butter techniques in their forum at the moment, was wondering what you CLF folks would consider the bread and butter techniques of your style in sparring/confrontations? I'd like to know more about your art and what the tactics you use at a high percentage are. Comments?

[Infrazael]

First off, you might wanna take a look at this site here. VERY good explanation of what CLF is:

http://www.ngfamilymartialarts.com/c...t_concepts.htm

Ok, they explain Sau Choy, Kup Choy etc. . . . . now let's get to the pugilistic science of CLF, shall we?

I'd say our "bread & butter" technique are the most basic of punches. . . . you have your straight punches (remember CMA doensn't really differentiate between a 'jab' and a 'cross' as boxing does), your arcing punches, your uppercuts, your elbows, your knees, your locks, your throws and sweeps.

A HUGE part of CLF is the "panther fist," which is a fist formation created by making a flat fist by curling only your foreknuckes into THIS shape:

http://www.stavangerkarateklubb.no/G...er/hiraken.jpg

http://www.irimi.it/image10/qt_hiraken.gif

I use that punch to throw my jabs (of course not when I'm wearing gloves though). . . . . very powerful. You don't need much energy to hurt someone with that baby.

When you think CLF, think kinda in western boxing terms except with wide, sweeping techniques. . . . . well, sorta. . . . it looks alot different in fighting. . . . . .

[JAZA]

I think that if you use that shape full speed you can break some of your hands bones.
You need to connect your thumb to make a structure.

[Gowgee]

Infrazael

Nice, and thanks for those links! I'd like to take this a step further now. I can see with most of the linear strikes how the teacher in those photos is moving in on his opponent there, but what kind of footwork is used typically in setting up gwa, sau, pow, kup or biu type circular strikes?

JAZA

Is hand conditioning such as pushups on body weapons like that leopard punch part of standard CLF workouts?

[hskwarrior]

those panther fists were not shaped by clf people. its funny how all clf people will notice the same thing.

i'm talking about the way the panther in these photo's should have the thumb connected,pressed into the side of the hand while the thumb tip pushes into the tip of the forefinger.

The panther fist is truly one of those techniques that have to take time to condition. If you think about the power behind your punches, and the destruction it can cause your hand if your panther isn't up to par. If you seem to have any doubt, try throwing a full blast panther at a punching bag and make sure the bag moves.

Now about the footwork..........I was just teaching this to my students the other day. We were going thru some "moving" or Mobile drills and and one of my students thought he would trip me up by changing directions constantly. one minute he was in front and i strike, then he shoots behind me to throw me off track, but because of CLF all it took was the turn of the waist and i took care of him behind me without any extra movements.

The footwork isn't all tha tricky, i feel more lies on the upper body techniques, but having full body awareness is great. but our footwork encompasses all angles of attack or defense. Since i studied escrima i can effectively fight either south paw or orthodox style stances, but when it comes to launching SOW CHOYS and such,
i use what we call 7 star stances. Bsically we follow the pattern of the 7 star flag, which is basically 45 degree angles.

What i mean is from your fighting stance you step out into a 45 degree angle lets say with your left foot and strike with a right sided sow choy. i've seen some choy lee fut go linear with this, but i prefer the angles more.


hsk

[Infrazael]

those panther fists were not shaped by clf people. its funny how all clf people will notice the same thing.

i'm talking about the way the panther in these photo's should have the thumb connected,pressed into the side of the hand while the thumb tip pushes into the tip of the forefinger.

The panther fist is truly one of those techniques that have to take time to condition. If you think about the power behind your punches, and the destruction it can cause your hand if your panther isn't up to par. If you seem to have any doubt, try throwing a full blast panther at a punching bag and make sure the bag moves.



hsk

That's strange. I couldn't actually find any CLF pantherfists, so I found some Karate pages instead.

But the way I hold it, I've never connected my thumb to the tip of my index finger if that's what you mean.

My thumb has always been on the side, and it's never failed me in that position before. My hand is almost completely flat when I hold a panther.

I've talked to a few Hung Gar players and they hold theirs differently, more of a in-between between a flat panther and a closed fist. Is that what you're talking about? Care to share any pictures?

[Eddie]

yep, those pics are pretty close to the way we hold panther fist in the LKH branch. and no, you wont break your hand. a flat fist is more solid than when you curve your knuckles (when you use your thumb as support). if you hold your first in the right way, your bones will allighn properly, and your fist should be solid. again, there has been a post about this before.

[Fu-Pow]

yep, those pics are pretty close to the way we hold panther fist in the LKH branch. and no, you wont break your hand. a flat fist is more solid than when you curve your knuckles (when you use your thumb as support). if you hold your first in the right way, your bones will allighn properly, and your fist should be solid. again, there has been a post about this before.

Agree. If you half-close your fist then the fist will collapse. Better to focus on lining up the bones of the fingers and hand.

Incidentally, the leopard fist is a soft target implement. Its too unforgiving to be used for hard targets. Hence, you shouldn't have to support your leopard fist with the thumb because you're not hitting hard targets in the first place.

Kung fu lesson # 1. Soft hits hard, hard hits soft. Meaning, hard anatomical weapons hit soft targets. Soft anatomical weapons hit hard targets. That's the only way that you don't end up hurting yourself in the process of hurting someone else.

Your wrists need to be very strong though. Mak Sifu can do push ups on his leopard fists.

[hskwarrior]

Infrazel,

basically what im saying about the way i shape the panther fist is this. The fist is almost competely flat, except for a very slight bend in it. Just a hair. you take the thumb and squeeze it down to the hand, and take the thumb tip and push it into the index fingertip. at the same time you focus on the last knuckle to the tip of the pinky squeezing in both direction (inward) and your panther fist will become a little more solid.

I am not sure how i can post a photo or if i should just tell people to check out my website when after upload the photo's but i will show in detail what i mean.

and if you want i just got video mail, so i can send an email with what i mean on video.

but try it out and see if you think its works. it does for me, very nicely.


hsk

[yutyeesam]

yeah my fist is completely flat when i hold my thumb to the side, in fact, since i'm so used to holding my fu jows with my fingers really bent back (same thing with knife hands position), that if i hold my leopard fist without thumb support, the fingers bend back just a tad.

but i know i have long thumbs, so i can do it. i see other folks who don't and they do that half curve fist thing. for them it's a good idea to just nix the thumb support.

panther fist isn't only for linear strikes to soft areas. you can also sow choy (downward) with a panther fist to cut.

-123

[hskwarrior]

yut yee sam,

are you talking about he inverted one, thumb side down. yeah, my sifu even uses the panther fist while doing the biu jong.

If the panther fist is too straight it will do what i call "Buckle". either downwards or upwards. but with a slight bend very slight you take care of that problem. and pressing with the thumbtips really helps in strengthening that fist. with the fingers flush with the back of the hand you take the risk of jamming your joints.

hsk

[Infrazael]

Infrazel,

basically what im saying about the way i shape the panther fist is this. The fist is almost competely flat, except for a very slight bend in it. Just a hair. you take the thumb and squeeze it down to the hand, and take the thumb tip and push it into the index fingertip. at the same time you focus on the last knuckle to the tip of the pinky squeezing in both direction (inward) and your panther fist will become a little more solid.

I am not sure how i can post a photo or if i should just tell people to check out my website when after upload the photo's but i will show in detail what i mean.

and if you want i just got video mail, so i can send an email with what i mean on video.

but try it out and see if you think its works. it does for me, very nicely.


hsk

Haha Frank. . . . don't worry I know EXACTLY what you're talking about now that I've thought it through.

It actually feels very decent, I'm gonna be trying it out real soon, so I'll post the differences I feel, and end up using whichever feels stronger to me.

Peace

[Eddie]

even the slightest curve can damage the bone. if you keep it flat and level with no curve, the bones will aline, and your fist will be more solid. thats just my opinion tho

[Gowgee]

Hope you guys won't mind me throwing in a few more questions here..

In the link Infrazael posted at the top of the page, there are a few limited body weapons shown: standard fist, panther fist and the forearm. I'm assuming the elbows and knees come in at closer range, but what other staple body weapons are used?

My other question is about CLF bridges. Mr. Ng shows some nice clear traps and strikes in his article, but I'm also interested in how CLF might use their bridges as a - for want of a better word - throw. From those pics, the bridge can get in pretty close to the opponent's trunk, and I'm assuming that by shifting your opponent's limb out of the way you could break their balance in any number of ways using those bridges. So... is this a fairly common tactic too?

[Eddie]

you mentioned all the weapons already?!, fingers, fists the round joint at the wrists (when you pull your hand in - for crane), forarm, elbow, shoulder (for push), hips (even your bum) mostly to uproot someone, knee, shins, instep, feet, ball of foot, heel... pretty much everything on your body. if you are fat, you can probably also roll on someone too .... we call that fatjitsu